Society of the Cincinnati

 
Guy Power
 
Avatar
 
 
Guy Power
Total Posts:  1576
Joined  05-01-2006
 
 
 
30 August 2013 18:29
 

Joseph McMillan;100447 wrote:

Unfortunately, I’ve never been able to find a coat of arms for Gen Knox, let alone one with the badge of the Cincinnati displayed with it.


The only reference to a coat of arms is that he had plates made with the "coat of arms of the Society of Cincinnati with the initials H.L.K. for himself and his wife:
Quote:

Besides the relic mentioned elsewhere in this sketch, Mr. Sikes has a solid mahogany bureau and secretary, eight and a half feet high and richly carved, which was formerly owned and used by Louis XVI of France and occupied a place in the Tuilleries. After the sacking of the palace in 1786 Gen. LaFayette secured the piece of furniture and sent it to Gen. Knox, from whom it has been handed down to our subject. Mr. Sikes also has a portion of a set of French china dishes made for Gen. Knox, ornamented with the coat-of-arms of the Society of the Cincinnati and the initials H. L. K., for Henry and Lucy Knox. The present owner has a just appreciation of the value of these remarkable relics and a due regard for his genealogical tree.

source

 

 


And he declined an [unconventional] offer to use Viscount Nothland’s arms:
Quote:

...Lord Viscount Nothland. This personage, after the American Revolution was over and the independence of United States acknowledged, courteously offered to General Henry Knox the family coat-of-arms, his lordship thinking that the distinguished American had ample right to armorial bearings. Knox declined the offer, saying that he was "not certain that he was entitled to be regarded a cadet of a distinguished house." He preferred to bear no cognisance but his own. His daughter, Mrs. Thatcher, says; "It was his pride to prefer the position which he acquired in his own proper sphere and become, so far as Providence should please, the head of his own house."

source


More info at Google Books

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
13 February 2014 18:49
 

Joseph McMillan;66732 wrote:

By the way, I’ve found pictures or detailed descriptions of the armorial bookplates of four original SoC members: Dr John Beatty, Joseph Bloomfield, and David Brearly (all of New Jersey) and Frederick Frye (of Massachusetts), and none of them make any kind of reference to SoC membership.


Oops, I’ve just realized that the bookplate of an original member, that I’ve known about for years, actually does make reference to SoC membership, but not with a gong hanging below the shield.

 

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1312&stc=1&d=1392335039

 

I’ve always wondered what on earth George Lee Turberville was thinking about with this supporter, something that appears on no other example of the Turberville arms in either England or America.  And then it dawned on me that the motto is that of the Society of the Cincinnati—"He gave up all to serve the republic."  And sure enough, GLT (colonel in the Virginia Continental Line) was one of the original members of the SoC.  Obviously he decided to display his SoC eagle in a somewhat more flamboyant than usual form.

 

Please, no one suggest that this is a precedent for Cincinnati members to use an eagle as a supporter of their arms!

 
David Pope
 
Avatar
 
 
David Pope
Total Posts:  559
Joined  17-09-2010
 
 
 
13 February 2014 19:49
 

Joseph McMillan;101507 wrote:

Oops, I’ve just realized that the bookplate of an original member, that I’ve known about for years, actually does make reference to SoC membership, but not with a gong hanging below the shield.

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1312&stc=1&d=1392335039

 

I’ve always wondered what on earth George Lee Turberville was thinking about with this supporter, something that appears on no other example of the Turberville arms in either England or America.  And then it dawned on me that the motto is that of the Society of the Cincinnati—"He gave up all to serve the republic."  And sure enough, GLT (colonel in the Virginia Continental Line) was one of the original members of the SoC.  Obviously he decided to display his SoC eagle in a somewhat more flamboyant than usual form.

 

Please, no one suggest that this is a precedent for Cincinnati members to use an eagle as a supporter of their arms!


Perhaps he was also mimicking the single eagle supporter of the US arms?

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
Avatar
 
 
Wilfred Leblanc
Total Posts:  1223
Joined  31-07-2007
 
 
 
13 February 2014 21:00
 

Long time, no see, gang. Many thanks to Joe for PMing me and letting me know about this.

Anyway, I can only agree that this is a flamboyant way of advertising membership in the SoC, but obviously, it adds in a general way to the anecdotal evidence that members of the Society have enjoyed (arrogated to themselves?) the prerogative of indicating their SoC membership in heraldic contexts.

 

I feel like I should write to the Executive Director of the SoC and ask whether this use of/allusion to SoC insignia would pass muster now. The Society has no guidelines concerning heraldry per se, but it has definite policies on im/permissible uses of the eagle—yes on cufflinks, no on personal stationery, etc., etc. This isn’t an intact SoC eagle, but rather cannibalized parts, what with the motto and all. Still, the Society’s leadership might react, and the reaction might be informative.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
Avatar
 
 
Wilfred Leblanc
Total Posts:  1223
Joined  31-07-2007
 
 
 
20 February 2014 19:06
 

For what it’s worth, I went once more to a reliable source in the Society to see if there’d been any movement on its attitude towards use of its insignia in heraldry since my query of five years ago. The short answer was no, this is something that has simply never been addressed. When members have included the Society insignia in heraldic art, they appear to have done so on their own initiative, without consulting the Society. My source said that the way to get a clear, definitive pronouncement would be for a member to make a formal request for permission to commission a work of heraldic art that includes an illustration of the Society eagle, which is a registered trademark. The Society would then have to respond. Maximum clarity could be guaranteed by asking the Society to indicate specifically which of the alternatives (if any) would be acceptable—eagle positioned in some fashion near the COA (as one of several decorative elements in the margins, positioned as floating nearby, etc.), eagle depended from the shield, or eagle abstracted and used as a supporter as in the bookplate of George Turberville. I would offer to be the guinea pig, but I have no desire to follow through at present if permission is granted, and I think the request should be a sincere one. However, some other member who commissions a lot of heraldic art might have a go at it. Obviously, I’d be interested to know the outcome.

It’s possible that some of the 14 constituent societies would deny the General Society’s jurisdiction in this matter, because they do have tremendous autonomy, but I am told the law is on the General Society’s side, so the approach outlined above would probably settle things.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
Avatar
 
 
Michael F. McCartney
Total Posts:  3535
Joined  24-05-2004
 
 
 
21 February 2014 01:02
 

While how the Cincinnati (or any other private societu) chooses to allow or disallow the use of their trademqrked insignia in their member’s arms, I would hate to see them opt for the supporter version, for all the reasons discussed n our Guidelines & n various discussions in this forum.  While if any order or group ccould claim this right it would be the Cincinnati, they would IMO not be true to their own vslues, and I fear would prompt any number of less-well-qualified me-too’s to follow suit.  Fr that reason, I would hope the question posed would be limited to the dependant badge option.

I’m not a member of the Cincinnati, nor do I come close to meeting their qualifications, so these comments are at best amicus curie, re: a group for which I have the greatest respect.  (I could probably qualify for SAR based on maternal lines - at least one great aunt IIRC was a DAR, based on enlisted non-officer ancestor - but haven’t pursued that option.)

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
Avatar
 
 
Wilfred Leblanc
Total Posts:  1223
Joined  31-07-2007
 
 
 
21 February 2014 01:29
 

I’m almost certain they’d discourage the supporter approach, but whether they could forbid it or not is another question, since it (the way Turberville used the eagle and the motto but not the cartouche or the laurels) isn’t the trademarked insignia per se. But whatever the Society thinks, it would be nice to have it in writing. Certainly, they have some heraldry-savvy members they can consult to figure it out. Obviously, there’s the AHS’s own Charles Drake, who’s written the only paper on this subject I’m aware of. Henry Beckwith of the NEHGSCOH and John Shannon of the College of Arms Foundation are also members.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
Avatar
 
 
Michael F. McCartney
Total Posts:  3535
Joined  24-05-2004
 
 
 
22 February 2014 01:09
 

Perhaps they couldn’t prohibit it, but certainly characterize it as bad form; and hopefully approve the dependant badge as an acceptable practice, at least within the context of their Society.

 
Guy Power
 
Avatar
 
 
Guy Power
Total Posts:  1576
Joined  05-01-2006
 
 
 
07 July 2015 16:11
 

Delete

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
Avatar
 
 
Michael F. McCartney
Total Posts:  3535
Joined  24-05-2004
 
 
 
07 July 2015 22:36
 

Guy—??

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
Avatar
 
 
Wilfred Leblanc
Total Posts:  1223
Joined  31-07-2007
 
 
 
27 April 2016 17:52
 

Not to distract from more urgent matters, but it’s been brought to my attention that the "object of the month" for April at Paris’s Musée de la Légion d’honneur et des Ordres de Chevalerie is a Cincinnati Eagle. Scroll down a little on their Facebook page and you’ll see some remarks about it.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
Avatar
 
 
Michael F. McCartney
Total Posts:  3535
Joined  24-05-2004
 
 
 
27 April 2016 21:04
 

Fred - thanks for sharing!  Having read about and discussing this topic over the years, this is the first time I can recall actually seeing their badge!

 
JJB1
 
Avatar
 
 
JJB1
Total Posts:  83
Joined  31-10-2014
 
 
 
27 April 2016 22:56
 

Here’s Henry Dearborn wearing his as a major general during the War of 1812.