Your help requested…

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 April 2014 12:01
 

Strong second to Joe’s post.  "Oops" is far different from "Oops - wink, wink."

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 April 2014 12:17
 

On the supposed Alexander/Bart’s Hospital duplication, I haven’t been able to find a form of the Alexander arms that doesn’t have some charge other than the chevron.  Have you?

Interestingly, it appears that Bart’s has been using its arms, which were originally those of one of its 15th century masters, since well before the visitations began without any molestation from the heralds, even though they have apparently never been either confirmed or granted.  Note that Bart’s is a 9 minute bus ride (7/10 of a mile) from the College of Arms.

 

The English law of arms says what, exactly?

 

:p

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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11 April 2014 14:09
 

Joseph McMillan;101821 wrote:

On the supposed Alexander/Bart’s Hospital duplication, I haven’t been able to find a form of the Alexander arms that doesn’t have some charge other than the chevron.  Have you?


No.  This is the same point I’ve been making with my proposed arms, though.

 

The assumption seems to be that under the Scottish system there is a simple undifferenced coat that is the stem arms, and that all other arms for the same surname are differenced from that coat.

 

But, if the "hypothetical base arms" of the Argent/Sable/Crescent Alexander arms (which would hypothetically be "per pale Argent and Sable a chevron counterchanged" with the crescent added as a difference) doesn’t really exist and therefore doesn’t duplicate the English Lawson/Barts arms, why is the assumption that the "hypothetical base arms" of the Argent/Gules/Canton Alexander arms (which would hypothetically be "per pale Argent and Gules a chevron counterchanged" with the canton added as a difference) does exist?

 

I have reviewed every recorded Alexander arms listed in Lyon Roll between 1672 and 1913 (the dates that LL has made publicly available on the Scotland’s People website).  The only two matriculations which feature Argent and Gules are those shown in my previous post.  All the other Alexander arms are of the Argent and Sable variety.  The 1912 matriculation for Thomas Alexander feature the "all descendants of the common grandfather" provision, but does not specify what the "hypothetical base arms" is imagined to be.

 

My question is simply this:  If Barts doesn’t duplicate the Argent/Sable/Crescent Alexander arms, how does my proposed design duplicate either of the two Argent/Gules/Canton shields (which feature additional differences beyond the canton) included in my last post?

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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11 April 2014 14:12
 

Joseph McMillan;101821 wrote:

Interestingly, it appears that Bart’s has been using its arms, which were originally those of one of its 15th century masters, since well before the visitations began without any molestation from the heralds, even though they have apparently never been either confirmed or granted.  Note that Bart’s is a 9 minute bus ride (7/10 of a mile) from the College of Arms.

The English law of arms says what, exactly?

 

:p


That transgressions of the law will be tolerated as long as they are notorious and persistent? :D

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 April 2014 23:09
 

smile—sounds like a tradition that was exported to the Colonies, on a scale much broader than mere heraldry…

More seriously, how about per pale & per chevron Argent & Gules?

Or maybe your current avatar with your dogwood badge (which I really, really like, however this argument goes) on a blue roundle in dexter chief?  Still quite simple, IMO quite attractive, & again IMO no serious concern with being arguably too similar to the red Alexander arms in LR?

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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12 April 2014 02:04
 

The canton on the arms of the descendants of the Alexanders of Auchininna (possible relatives as they share the unusual (for Alexanders) first name of David with my 3x great grandfather who married in the next parish - thanks to Kenneth for posting the link) is probably due to the claim by the Earl of Stirling (and thus also by this family) to be of MacDonald stock and to be chief of "clan Alistair".

This was put forward by Sir William Alexander of Menstrie when he received the first of his peerage titles (a Viscounty) in 1630. Even then the Lord Lyon dragged his heels about granting a quartering for the new "clan Alistair" and had to be ordered to do so directly by the King, twice.

 

If the Earl of Stirling is considered chief then his arms:

 

Per pale Argent and Sable a chevron a crescent in base all counterchanged

 

would normally be the basis off which all Alexanders would be differenced. This was the case in the early days of Lyon Register.

 

Alexander of Auchmull, Bailie of Aberdeen: Per pale Argent and Sable a chevron between two stars in chief and a crescent in base all counterchanged (LR i/239, 1672/3)

 

Alexander of Ballomyle: Per pale Argent and Sable a chevron between a fleur de lys in chief and a crescent in base, all counterchanged, all within a bordure per pale Gules and Or (LR i/244, 23rd July 1788 )

 

Alexander of Boghall: Per pale Argent and Sable a chevron between a writing pen fessways in chief and a crescent in base, all counterchanged (LR i/239, 26th July 1673)

 

Boyd Alexander Esq: Per pale Argent and Sable a chevron between a writing pen fessways in chief and a crescent in base, all counterchanged, all within a bordure parted per pale Gules and Or (LR i/244, 18th November 1784)

 

Alexander of Haughton: Per pale Sable and Argent a chevron and a chief, the last charged with three cushions, all counterchanged (LR i/243, 24th January 1772)

 

Alexander of Kinglassie: Per pale Argent and Sable a chevron brise and in base a crescent, all counterchanged (LR i/239, 1673-75)

 

Alexander of Knockhill: Per pale Argent and Sable a chevron charged with a mollet and in base a crescent, all counterchanged (LR i/239, 1672-3)

 

Alexander of Pitskellie: Per pale engrailed Argent and Sable a chevron and in base a crescent, all counterchanged (LR i/239, 1672-3)

 

There are two rematriculations of Ballomyle (19th and 20th centuries) and two grants (one 19th and one 20th century) other than those of the cadets of Auchininna. They all follow the Argent/Sable tincture scheme. In one, a 19th century Glasgow merchant is given one of the cross crosslets and the galley from Lord Stirling’s "clan Alistair" quartering in chief. The other looks like a cadet rematriculation of Auchmull with the crescent replaced by a cushion.

 

In devising the arms for the two Auchininna cadets (BTW I’m certain that the family were only ever "in Auchininna" i.e. tenants rather than "of Auchininna" i.e. owners, as both Auchininnas were part of the Netherdale estate). Lord Lyon Balfour Paul considered that these Aberdeenshire/Banffshire Alexanders were too removed from Stirlingshire to be of the same family and so introduced the tincture change as a major difference whilst keeping the otherwise unusual (in Scotland) counterchanged chevron as obviously Alexander. The use of a canton with something "MacDonald-ish" on it probably kept the client happy given the romantic view of them all being MacDonalds really - cantons are occasionally used in Scottish heraldry for arms "of affection" where the armiger has no blood right to the arms.

 

I’d be happy to assume (and Lyon Court tends not to keep records on design rationale) that Balfour Paul was working on the basis of arms in potentia for Auchininna of

 

Per pale Argent and Gules a chevron counterchanged and on a canton Azure a lymphad of the first

 

and of using Argent and Gules a chevron counterchanged (again in potentia) as the basis for any future north east Alexander arms without them actually being assigned to any particular person.

 

James

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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12 April 2014 07:08
 

James,

Thanks for your thorough analysis.  It is very helpful.  Do you know of any Scottish arms which feature "per pale Argent and Gules two chevronels counterchanged"?

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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12 April 2014 10:31
 

Try this one on?

[ATTACH]1317[/ATTACH]

 
 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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12 April 2014 21:18
 

Kenneth,

Thanks for your artwork.  Much appreciated.

 

 

Okay, so now the question is this:  Is there any evidence that "per pale Argent and Gules two chevronels counterchanged" is duplicative of any previously recorded arms?  Speak now or forever hold your peace? :pope:

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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13 April 2014 01:49
 

Nothing in Scotland (up till 1973) with Per pale Argent and Gules two chevronels counterchanged.

James

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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23 April 2014 08:43
 

My arms formally assumed and registered online here:

http://www.armorial-register.com/arms-us/pope-dl-arms.html

The emblazonment was graciously provided by Harold Cannon.  Brian Jeffs is the talented artist who illustrated the badge.

 

Thanks to the Society for your patient and gentle guidance during this multi-year (and multi-design…) process!  I am thankful for this online community.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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23 April 2014 15:01
 

Congratulations, David!

 
 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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23 April 2014 15:11
 

Kenneth Mansfield;101922 wrote:

Congratulations, David!


Thanks.  Thanks for your help.  You’ve been quite longsuffering!

 
harold cannon
 
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harold cannon
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23 April 2014 15:27
 

YAY!!! ........ That is all.

 
Andemicael
 
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Andemicael
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24 April 2014 00:51
 

wow. That is really a find. Bravo, absolutely striking.