Helm on Established Arms

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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12 August 2014 15:11
 

My family has arms that were originally granted in England in the 16th century; they have been very sparsely used since migration to North America, however, I was thinking about getting cuff links made with that design.

I am far from an expert in heraldry, so my questions are ...

 

(a) am I correct to assume that the issued arms consist of the escutcheon and crest only, and that the type of helm used in the display of arms can be anything the user desires,

 

(b) if true, would it be heraldically inappropriate to use a Phrygian cap as a helm instead of an actual helmet (I would prefer not to use a helmet that denotes class, if possible, as with the English heraldic helmets); I’ve seen a Phrygian cap used in national arms like Cuba, but am unclear if that is an accurate usage

 

(c) alternatively, is it appropriate or acceptable to display just the escutcheon without a helmet or crest (or is that the mark of a novice)?

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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12 August 2014 15:34
 

(a) most likely, yes

(b) yes

 

(c) yes (no)

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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12 August 2014 15:38
 

arriano;102399 wrote:

(a) most likely, yes

(b) yes

 

(c) yes (no)


Fantastic - thank you so much!

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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12 August 2014 18:29
 

Ditto earlier response.

So wbhat are the arms?  (Apologies if already posted)

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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12 August 2014 18:34
 

Michael F. McCartney;102405 wrote:

Ditto earlier response.

So wbhat are the arms?  (Apologies if already posted)


sable on a fess or between three cinquefoils ermine; lion passant Gules between two mullets of the field - the crest is a demi-lion rampant Gules holding a mullet sable in the dexter paw ...

 

I am unclear how one would attach a crest to a Phrygian cap, but I figure I’d let an artist figure that out once it gets to that point (I’m still a bit off and just doing some preliminary research) - or maybe there’s a non-helmet helm other than a Phrygian cap people might recommend?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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13 August 2014 23:12
 

Uhh…on the helm, not entirely "whatever" is desired.  See the AHS guidelines on helms.  No open visors, please, and no barred helms, unless you’re a knight or a nobleman.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 August 2014 23:14
 

Phrygian cap:  please don’t.

A closed helm (barrel, tilting, or armet with visor down) all work in the American tradition for the arms of anyone, with no connotations of particular rank.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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14 August 2014 01:08
 

Joseph McMillan;102425 wrote:

Phrygian cap:  please don’t.


Ha! Is a Phrygian cap just a stylistically unappealing helm? An actual helmet seems a little ostentatious to me; I know it’s not and is not intended to be, I’m just trying to find something a little more egalitarian than a helmet. A helmet really doesn’t fit my personality. Are there any non-helmet options?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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14 August 2014 10:37
 

You can always forgo a crest altogether, or display it on the torse above the shield with no helm.

Although I’m not entirely sure why a generic gentleman’s helmet is any more anti-egalitarian than displaying a shield of arms to start with.

 
steven harris
 
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steven harris
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14 August 2014 12:03
 

These days I tend to use just my shield and crest without any helm at all; or mantling for that matter.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mD6VWjc8lyc/U-zdc3yXKOI/AAAAAAAACXM/qwLI2rf8uyQ/s330/shield+and+crest.png

 

I think it makes both a little easier to see, and it allows them to be drawn a bit larger when filling a defined area (such as on a cuff link).

 

One of these days I’ll get around to commissioning an image like this that also includes my motto and slogan, but this’ll do for now.

 

(IIRC, the original artwork here was done by our own Kenneth Mansfield, which I then manipulated a bit)

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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14 August 2014 23:26
 

Joseph McMillan;102430 wrote:

You can always forgo a crest altogether, or display it on the torse above the shield with no helm.

Although I’m not entirely sure why a generic gentleman’s helmet is any more anti-egalitarian than displaying a shield of arms to start with.


excellent point; taken

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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14 August 2014 23:35
 

This does not apply to me, however, out of curiosity, what type of helm could a hereditary chief (not an elected chief) of a Native-American tribe display? Could they put a crown or coronet on their arms?

I assume Canadian heraldry would be a good guide for that question; does a hereditary chief receiving a grant of arms from Canada receive any special rights?

 

For example, Philip Lane is Hereditary Chief of the White Swan Dakota in the U.S. and Canada (and is a dual citizen of both). Would he be entitled to a special helm or, for that matter, supporters under either Canadian heraldic law or American heraldic best practices?

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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15 August 2014 00:31
 

Quote:

I assume Canadian heraldry would be a good guide for that question; does a hereditary chief receiving a grant of arms from Canada receive any special rights?

For example, Philip Lane is Hereditary Chief of the White Swan Dakota in the U.S. and Canada (and is a dual citizen of both). Would he be entitled to a special helm or, for that matter, supporters under either Canadian heraldic law or American heraldic best practices?


According to a page on the website of the RHSC:


Quote:

The following persons are entitled to supporters for life:

The Governor General

Lieutenant Governors of Provinces

Chief Justice of Canada

The Prime Minister

Privy Councilors

The Herald Chancellor

The Deputy Herald Chancellor

The Speaker of the House of Commons

The Speaker of the Senate

Companions of the Order of Canada

Commanders of the Order of Military Merit

Commanders of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces

Commanders of the Royal Victorian Order

Bailiffs and Dames Grand Cross of the Venerable Order of St. John

http://education.heraldry.ca/course_canadian.htm

I would guess that Mr. Lane would be entitled to Canadian supporters if he was also one of the above.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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15 August 2014 09:30
 

zebulon;102451 wrote:

This does not apply to me, however, out of curiosity, what type of helm could a hereditary chief (not an elected chief) of a Native-American tribe display? Could they put a crown or coronet on their arms?


I think Seb has covered the Canadian position.  From my perspective, one must tread very carefully in trying to superimpose one culture’s system of symbols on another culture.  To me, asking what kind of coronet or helm should be displayed with the arms of a dignitary in a society in which the bearing of heraldic arms is not customary in the first place is like asking whether the members of a particularly numerous Arab fukhdh need the permission of the shaykh of their ‘ashira to adopt a new tartan, or how many feathers the hetman of a Cossack rid can wear with the crest badge on his czapka.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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18 August 2014 01:31
 

Another question - what if one’s granted arms were not granted with a crest?

(1) I read it is customary, or at least conventional or acceptable, to use a plume of ostrich feathers in lieu of a crest, is that correct/true?

 

(2) In lieu of that, can one "assume" just a crest in the way one can assume arms, under U.S. heraldic best practices/guidelines?

 

(3) Does the College of Arms grant crests only as an addition to existing arms? What if one were a U.S. armiger using non-honorary arms, would said crest then be an "honorary" crest used with "non-honorary" arms?

 

(4) What kind of badge would be constructed (or could be constructed) for arms that have no crest?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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18 August 2014 07:29
 

zebulon;102485 wrote:

Another question - what if one’s granted arms were not granted with a crest?

(1) I read it is customary, or at least conventional or acceptable, to use a plume of ostrich feathers in lieu of a crest, is that correct/true?


In some countries (Spain comes to mind) a plume of feathers is more or less the standard adornment for the helm, and my impression is that they are not considered a crest as such. In English- and German-speaking countries, however, such a plume would simply be the crest, not an alternative to one.


Quote:

(2) In lieu of that, can one "assume" just a crest in the way one can assume arms, under U.S. heraldic best practices/guidelines?

Yes.


Quote:

(3) Does the College of Arms grant crests only as an addition to existing arms? What if one were a U.S. armiger using non-honorary arms, would said crest then be an "honorary" crest used with "non-honorary" arms?

Yes, although now rarely because most English personal arms now already have crests. Up through the 17th century, there were many arms that didn’t have crests, and if the kings of arms deemed you worthy—however defined—they would grant a crest.

When you say a U.S. person using non-honorary arms, do you mean arms inherited from an English ancestor that are already on record at the College? Arms from somewhere else? Assumed arms? If you mean arms of English origin that the College would consider legitimate, I’d be surprised if the question has ever come up during the period since the concept of honorary arms was invented, i.e., the last 100 years or so.


Quote:

(4) What kind of badge would be constructed (or could be constructed) for arms that have no crest?


Any kind of badge. A crest may be used as a badge (some Scottish records from the 16th century actually refer to the thing on top of the helm as a badge), but historically most English badges bore no relation to the crest.