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dschweitzer156
 
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dschweitzer156
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01 September 2014 20:30
 

I have been going through boxes of my files to see what I could save from a flooded basement. I found my unit was awarded the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry with Palm. May I add this to my COA.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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01 September 2014 21:59
 

dschweitzer156;102563 wrote:

I have been going through boxes of my files to see what I could save from a flooded basement. I found my unit was awarded the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry with Palm. May I add this to my COA.


I would say not.  It could justifiably be displayed with the arms or badge of the unit, but personal arms should only be shown with personal decorations, in my opinion.

 
dschweitzer156
 
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dschweitzer156
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01 September 2014 22:12
 

Thank you

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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05 September 2014 20:34
 

Joseph McMillan;102564 wrote:

I would say not.  It could justifiably be displayed with the arms or badge of the unit, but personal arms should only be shown with personal decorations, in my opinion.


You know, I’ve been thinking about this for some time… I have to say, I believe I did more for at least one of my unit awards than personal.. and was proud to have been with the unit at that time…  I’m on the fence right now about display of unit awards, per se…  I do think one should keep the number of "dangly bits" to an appropriate taste level.. but I think certainly some displays could go in for some or all of what was earned…

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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06 September 2014 00:14
 

I tend to agree with Kathy, though there is a possibility of a slippery slope.

Short of the Medal of Honor, I can’t imagine a more worthy gong than, say, the citation for the 442nd Go For Broke.  Being part of that unit would have been IMO a far greater honor than e.g. my Bronze Star without a V.

 

Others of course may differ…

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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06 September 2014 05:46
 

Yes, clearly the Presidential Unit Citation is a bigger deal than most personal awards.  But a person’s personal coat of arms is peraonal.  The PUC and other collective awards are collective.

I understand the sentiment. My father always said his proudest achievement in the Air Force was that his squadron in Vietnam received two Outstanding Unit Awards with V during his one year in command. Nevertheless.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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07 September 2014 17:48
 

Joseph McMillan;102604 wrote:

Yes, clearly the Presidential Unit Citation is a bigger deal than most personal awards.  But a person’s personal coat of arms is peraonal.  The PUC and other collective awards are collective. .


However, Joe.  It is part of one’s personal history when/if they were part of a prestigious unit and one wears them on their uniforms even when not longer with the unit.. Since the award is recognizable as a unit award… placing it on your arms merely shows you were a part of a unit awarded it…

 

Again… I’m still thinking about this, but… Maybe in the US we could put the unit ribbons on our supporters?  :rolleyes:

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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07 September 2014 20:54
 

The border of a bookplate seems like an excellent place for it.

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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08 September 2014 00:45
 

Kathy McClurg;102616 wrote:

However, Joe. It is part of one’s personal history when/if they were part of a prestigious unit and one wears them on their uniforms even when not longer with the unit.. Since the award is recognizable as a unit award… placing it on your arms merely shows you were a part of a unit awarded it…

Again… I’m still thinking about this, but… Maybe in the US we could put the unit ribbons on our supporters? :rolleyes:


In the U.S. Army, you wear the division/brigade patch of a unit you served with in combat for the rest of your career, either on the right sleeve of ACUs (or whatever the Army has decided to call fatigues these days) or in metal form on the right pocket in blues.  You also wear the insignia of the regiment with which you are affiliated above the right pocket.  Should we also make these part of personal arms?

 

As Fr Guy always reminds us, a coat of arms is a coat of arms, not a CV.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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08 September 2014 17:04
 

I have to agree. Adding it to your coat of arms seems to me as if you’re taking full credit for something your unit did.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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09 September 2014 02:13
 

Well, there are of course arguments both ways.

To expand the debate a bit, IMO displaying a campaign ribbon along with a personal award (or possibly Distinguished Unit Citation) is a useful way to give the gongs a context - tho’ I recognize that our AHS best practices guidelines don’t support that view.

 

Also recognize that this would not be consistant with British & likely other foreign practices, but I don’t give that much weight in an American context.  However for those using arms in an international context, I concede that my approach might provoke a "snicker factor" that one might wish to avoid.

 

My personal opinions only.

 
QuiQuog
 
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QuiQuog
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09 September 2014 11:02
 

I’m not going to argue for or against such an award on personal arms, but I don’t agree with the notion that adding it amounts to taking full credit for the award. If that were the case then you wouldn’t want to wear it on your uniform either. It goes without saying, or should at least, that a unit award isn’t achieved by an individual, so it shouldn’t seem like it to anyone who knows what it is.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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09 September 2014 14:06
 

Well, as far as I know, the Brits don’t do unit awards per se, but the French, Dutch, Spanish, Italians, Russians, and probably others do.

As far as I know, in none of these countries is it the practice to display the insignia of a unit award of, say, the Croix de Guerre or the Order of San Fernando with one’s personal arms. Part of the philosophy underlying the Guidelines was to look to general international heraldic custom—where the existence of such a custom could be inferred—as the basis for best practice in the U.S.

 

The argument from the uniform, to me, doesn’t hold water—see my response to Kathy regarding Army combat patches and regimental affiliation insignia. A military uniform is an expression of collective identity in the first place, even (especially in the army) of several collective identities: "I am a soldier, a member of the infantry, affiliated with the 23rd Infantry Regiment, assigned to the 3d Infantry Division, served with the 1st Armored Cavalry in combat, and did a stint on the Army Staff." It also includes a number of personal identity elements: rank, professional qualifications (jump wings, combat infantry badge, Ranger qualification, etc.) and to those who can read the code gives a full-color graphic CV in the form of campaign and service ribbons.

 

NONE of the items in that list are appropriate additaments to a personal coat of arms in any heraldic practice that I’m aware of. If the standard is "well, you can wear it on the uniform," then where do we stop? Most infantrymen consider the CIB a higher honor than a whole slew of personal decorations, let alone, say the Meritorious Unit Award. Where in the heraldic achievement is the right place for the pilot’s wings? Submariner’s dolphins? The strategic submarine deterrent patrol pin? The little "I was a commanding officer" pin in its Navy or Air Force incarnations? How about former recruiters who induced more than their quota of teenagers to sign up? Overseas service stripes? Time in service hashmarks? Navy occupational specialty rating emblems?

 

As always, everyone is free to do as he or she pleases, but I really don’t see how a unit award ribbon belongs in a different heraldic category than any of the above, or how its display as part of a coat of arms can be considered a best practice.

 
QuiQuog
 
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QuiQuog
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09 September 2014 16:01
 

I’m not taking a side against your view. The statement I was at issue with was that if you put it on your arms it implies that you take full credit for the award. To say that in itself implies that any display of a unit award on a personal item gives the impression that you are the one responsible for the award. As if having it on your ribbon rack in a shadowbox hanging on the wall will make someone stop and say, "Hey, what did you do to get the outstanding unit award?"

Again, not making an argument for or against it on a CoA.