Another new member!

 
mackguy
 
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mackguy
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09 September 2014 12:05
 

Hi everyone,

I’m new here.  Lots of questions I’m hoping to get figured out here.  I’ve been researching my family history and use of arms etc and so on.  Of course the infamous internet search and novelty companies have some stuff for us, but I’ve since come to learn these things only work legitimately if you have direct descendant from the original grantee of the arms, and even then I’m a little unsure if that’s true (I heard somewhere that arms were specific to a person not a family).

 

I was surprised recently with research through Ancestry.com (on another topic, is that pretty reliable or another internet promulgation of error?) that my ancestry immigrated directly to the Americas (pre revolution) from Germany.  I had been taught growing up that we were English due to the spelling of the surname.  Shriver rather than Schriver/Schreiber, however based on the Ancestry.com records it appears the change in spelling occurred upon immigration to North America (c1720 per my research).

 

I have found (again supposing ancestry.com is correct) there was a family homestead of 6 generations in Maryland, and their website has some information as well, and includes this coat of arms, as referenced from a family history book published in 1888.

http://unionmills.org/images/coat_of_arms_color_sm.jpg

http://unionmills.org/coatofarms.htm

 

Of course the 1888 reference is more than 160 years removed from the emigration from Germany ("And whereas the said man and wife and their children, after having borne adversities, are about to turn their backs upon their country,  [11]  and to go, (God knows where), into a strange country,"), it seems reasonable that the family that left their country due to adversities was probably not the original grantee of an arms that indicated great wealth due to waterways on their land, so again it seems somewhat removed.  Is there a way to verify that this arms is a correct one?

 

Alternately, I have been pondering the idea of simply drafting a new arms for my family, but want to go about that in the correct way as well.

 

Looking forward to learning much more!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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09 September 2014 13:49
 

Whether ancestry.com is reliable depends on which data from it you are using.  Where it publishes original primary sources (census data, birth and death certificates, marriage registers, court records, etc.), it’s basically as reliable as the actual original records, especially when it includes photographs of the original record.

When it’s sending you to things like the International Genealogical Index, World Family Tree, etc, or to published family histories and so on, it’s only as reliable as the research from which the data was drawn or invented.  Anything that’s not cited to a primary or at least unbiased secondary source, I treat as only a pointer for my own research, and even where a proper source is cited, I do my best to verify the accuracy of the source.

 

In short, an invaluable resource (the related familysearch.com, with more original records, even more so), but full of information that, when peeled back, traces only to great aunt Tillie’s determination to find a royal descent somewhere, oh somewhere, back up the line.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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09 September 2014 13:56
 

mackguy;102633 wrote:

I have found (again supposing ancestry.com is correct) there was a family homestead of 6 generations in Maryland, and their website has some information as well, and includes this coat of arms, as referenced from a family history book published in 1888.

 

Of course the 1888 reference is more than 160 years removed from the emigration from Germany ("And whereas the said man and wife and their children, after having borne adversities, are about to turn their backs upon their country, [11] and to go, (God knows where), into a strange country,"), it seems reasonable that the family that left their country due to adversities was probably not the original grantee of an arms that indicated great wealth due to waterways on their land, so again it seems somewhat removed. Is there a way to verify that this arms is a correct one?


It’s difficult with German arms—even more so in 1888 than now, which may seem counterintuitive, but has to do with the fact that we can get easier access to date via the internet than anyone in 1888 America could do via letters back and forth to German archives.

 

I would suggest that if this family was entitled to a coat of arms in the early 1700s, they probably would have (a) known it, and (b) used it, and have left traces of that usage some time in that first 160 years. This has nothing to do with whether the family was rich or not.  Possessing arms was certainly more common the higher up you went on the social scale, but it would not be unusual for a family of small-to-middling farmers who owned their own land to have a coat of arms.  Like the vast majority of German arms, however, these would more likely have been adopted unilaterally rather than granted.

 

Now it may be, if the ancestry can be traced to a particular person in a particular area of Germany, that said person was from a family that had a coat of arms, and that painstaking research might reveal what those arms were. But it is far more likely that whoever wrote the 1888 history had no idea that arms pertain to specific lineages, not to surnames, and simply picked a convenient coat labeled Schreiber out of a collection of German arms.

 
mackguy
 
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mackguy
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09 September 2014 14:51
 

Thanks for your great feedback, and what you said is exactly why I had concerns about the 1888 family book.  I don’t see anything that says why they used that arms, i.e. they knew it was in use by the family up till that point, or if the book was the first thing that showed the arms.

Union Mills was built in the late 1700’s, and a distant uncle David Shriver was apparently a colonel for the would be USA in the revolutionary war, and helped draft the Maryland state constitution.  I suppose since he is of some renown maybe a record of his would indicate if he used any arms.

 

I tried to use mostly official records where they existed, though I am noticing now a few holes.  I let my ancestry.com account expire some time ago so I can’t get back into those right now.

 

Probably makes more sense at this point to just create a new one for my family.  I’ll have to review on this site to see what I can find, but any pointers would be helpful!

 
NLP337
 
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NLP337
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09 September 2014 16:13
 

I’m relatively new here as well, but would like to say ‘welcome’! :D

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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10 September 2014 02:50
 

Welcome aboard!

We usually advise those considering designing and adopting new arms to go slow - otherwise the risk is "blazon in haste, regret at leisure."

 

As Joe may remind us, while much of our forum is open to Registered Users, detailed assistance in designing new arms is limited to the Members Only portions of the forum which are accessible only by those who become dues-paying members of the Society.  After all, we need the dues to pay for keeping the website and forum up & running.

 

However, a little initial advice and comment is OK, so FWIW (my thoughts, others may approach the topic differently):

First, consider why you want arms and who you want to share them with.  Some are looking for something purely personal or self and immediate nuclear family.  Oth e rs want something meaningful to siblings or cousins des cended from some shared ancestor, near or distant, as a symbol of family rather than primarily personal identity.  Wh a t are you hoping to create?

 

Second, given your desired starting point (self? Parent? Grandparent? Great grandparent? Nth-great…?) what symbols might be most likely to inspire the desired shared identity?  One possibility is to determine the etymology of the shared family name as a starting point, though there may well be other approaches given the particular history of your family.

 

Third, if your starting point is earlier than yourself, consider consulting with at least some of those who you would hope to share the new arms with.  Two (or many) heads are often better than one, especially if you want family buy-in.

 

And then take your time!  In dating terms, you’re looking for Ms. Right, not Ms. Right Now.

 

And consider joining the Society so we can particip a te in your design process!

 
mackguy
 
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mackguy
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10 September 2014 09:53
 

Michael F. McCartney;102651 wrote:

Welcome aboard!

We usually advise those considering designing and adopting new arms to go slow - otherwise the risk is "blazon in haste, regret at leisure."

 

As Joe may remind us, while much of our forum is open to Registered Users, detailed assistance in designing new arms is limited to the Members Only portions of the forum which are accessible only by those who become dues-paying members of the Society.  After all, we need the dues to pay for keeping the website and forum up & running.

 

However, a little initial advice and comment is OK, so FWIW (my thoughts, others may approach the topic differently):

First, consider why you want arms and who you want to share them with.  Some are looking for something purely personal or self and immediate nuclear family.  Oth e rs want something meaningful to siblings or cousins des cended from some shared ancestor, near or distant, as a symbol of family rather than primarily personal identity.  Wh a t are you hoping to create?

 

Second, given your desired starting point (self? Parent? Grandparent? Great grandparent? Nth-great…?) what symbols might be most likely to inspire the desired shared identity?  One possibility is to determine the etymology of the shared family name as a starting point, though there may well be other approaches given the particular history of your family.

 

Third, if your starting point is earlier than yourself, consider consulting with at least some of those who you would hope to share the new arms with.  Two (or many) heads are often better than one, especially if you want family buy-in.

 

And then take your time!  In dating terms, you’re looking for Ms. Right, not Ms. Right Now.

 

And consider joining the Society so we can particip a te in your design process!


Thanks, I understand and will likely join before going "all in", and I have thought through several of the questions you pose so I have a pretty good idea of where to start.

 

I would likely extend the use as far as my father and brother.  We have quite a lot in common, and some themes to build on.

 

1) Christian faith - a vital trait that binds our family together

2) Engineering/Technology - My dad is a (retired) nuclear engineer, I am a mechanical engineer, my brother is a VP for IT

3) Automotive passion/Racing - we are all into cars, and all (amateur) racers

4) Value of education - The 3 of us have college degrees, dad and I both have advanced degrees, dad was a professor, and my wife is a teacher

5) possible 5th is Patriotism - I believe my family has been in the America’s since before the revolution, as the country has grown, so have we.

 

Also want to work out a family motto with those in mind.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 September 2014 04:40
 

A good start!  - the trick will be to express some/all of these themes in ways that will be ideally unique to your family vs any number of other families who might share most or all of these same themes smile

If you haven’t already done so, you might want to look up the etymology of your family name as another element to consider including.

 

I think that’ll about as far as I can go re: general approaches - looking forward to more detailed exchanges once you become a Member!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 September 2014 06:20
 

I would say you’ve got a lot you want to include reference to, so I’d be thinking about ways to have one symbol stand for more than one idea.  Five or six things is an awful lot to get across in the space of a shield, or even shield and crest.

 
mackguy
 
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mackguy
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11 September 2014 15:02
 

Michael F. McCartney;102669 wrote:

A good start!  - the trick will be to express some/all of these themes in ways that will be ideally unique to your family vs any number of other families who might share most or all of these same themes smile

If you haven’t already done so, you might want to look up the etymology of your family name as another element to consider including.

 

I think that’ll about as far as I can go re: general approaches - looking forward to more detailed exchanges once you become a Member!

Joseph McMillan;102670 wrote:

I would say you’ve got a lot you want to include reference to, so I’d be thinking about ways to have one symbol stand for more than one idea.  Five or six things is an awful lot to get across in the space of a shield, or even shield and crest.


I was figuring it doesn’t seem uncommon to see a shield with quarters, so we could get 4 symbols.

 

Entymology of Shriver/Schreiber is "writer" which would tie in with the education connection as several hundred years ago, the ability to read and write would have implied some "advanced" educaiton.

 

The Patriotism theme would likely be reflected in a motto rather than the sheild.  Also some sort of eagle in place of the usual knights helmet atop the sheild would be a thought, but I’m not sure that’s allowed since our Federal Gov’t uses that, probably a discussion for post membership.

 

It will be a fun project..

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 September 2014 16:29
 

If you haven’t done so yet, you might want to read our Guidelines (Best Practices) linked to our home page, especially the part addressing quartered arms.  We generally discourage them in new designs since they usually signify the marshalling (combining) of two distinct existing coats e.g. father’s arms and mother’s family arms.

 
mackguy
 
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mackguy
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12 September 2014 12:41
 

Michael F. McCartney;102675 wrote:

If you haven’t done so yet, you might want to read our Guidelines (Best Practices) linked to our home page, especially the part addressing quartered arms.  We generally discourage them in new designs since they usually signify the marshalling (combining) of two distinct existing coats e.g. father’s arms and mother’s family arms.


Thanks again for great information here… the direction against quartering is interesting and certainly complicated my thought process.

 

What got me back into this thought (it’s been rolling around in my head for some time was a quick view at the arms for the Bishop of my diocese (Charlotte), for whatever reason I previously assumed that the arms were given by the church, but apparently they are created by (or at the direction of) the bishop himself.  For Charlotte the Bishop had his arms designed by a member of this community (Father James Parker)

 

http://www.charlottediocese.org/images/main/bishop-charlotte/JgsCtArm.png

 

Are there special rules for arms of clergy?  Incidentally it’s a little bit of comic relief to think of clergy having "arms":cool:

 

I know the hat and tassels and whatnot indicate the rank of bishop but the shield device itself is apparently whatever the bishop wants.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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12 September 2014 14:58
 

It may seem comic that clergy have "arms," but only if you take the term "arms" literally in an outdated sort of way—like 700-800 years outdated.

The one thing that is special about bishops’ arms themselves is that the bishop in charge of a diocese, at least in English-speaking countries, usually impales his personal arms with those of the diocese, diocesan arms to dexter.  This is similar to the traditional arrangement in Anglophone heraldry for displaying the arms of a married couple, in which the man’s arms are on the dexter side and the woman’s on the sinister.

 

Of course the system of clerical hats indicating rank in the Catholic and Episcopal churches and the processional cross borne by a bishop behind the shield are specific to them, but that has nothing to do with the arms themselves.

 
mackguy
 
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mackguy
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12 September 2014 15:57
 

Joseph McMillan;102688 wrote:

It may seem comic that clergy have "arms," but only if you take the term "arms" literally in an outdated sort of way—like 700-800 years outdated.

The one thing that is special about bishops’ arms themselves is that the bishop in charge of a diocese, at least in English-speaking countries, usually impales his personal arms with those of the diocese, diocesan arms to dexter.  This is similar to the traditional arrangement in Anglophone heraldry for displaying the arms of a married couple, in which the man’s arms are on the dexter side and the woman’s on the sinister.

 

Of course the system of clerical hats indicating rank in the Catholic and Episcopal churches and the processional cross borne by a bishop behind the shield are specific to them, but that has nothing to do with the arms themselves.


Interesting, and it does follow logically with what the information is about it

http://www.charlottediocese.net/bishop-jugis/220-bishop-charlotte/730-2013-01-10-19-26-01

 

Already learned a ton from this board!