Tightening Up A Design

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 October 2014 07:55
 

Out of curiosity, other than the clip-art, where does the information come from that a gamelyon had the head and mane of a lion? As noted in Dennys, there were three known representations of this beast in English heraldry, all emblazonments of the same arms, and the heads resemble a wolf (long snout, pointed tongue, no mane), a griffin, and a dragon.

I just found an article from the Metropolitan Museum Journal (1991) by Helmut Nickel, curator emeritus of arms and armor at the Metropolitan, entitled "Presents to Princes: A Bestiary of Strange and Wondrous Beasts, Once Known, for a Time Forgotten, and Rediscovered," http://www.metmuseum.org/pubs/journals/1/pdf/1512906.pdf.bannered.pdf at page 133.

 

Nickel says:


Quote:

As we have seen with the Questing Beast, the fictitious heraldry of the Knights of the Round Table knows of manifold strange beasts, such as the dragon on King Arthur’s helmet crest and battle standard, and the dragonlike gampilun (probably based on an exaggerated story about the fierce-looking chameleon, which appears in English heraldry as the gamelyon) assigned to Gawain in Wolfram von Eschenbach’s Parzival .


This and the drawing in Dennys suggest to me a lizard’s/dragon’s head, dragon’s wings, a lion’s body, legs, and paws, and a lizard’s tail (without the barb usually found on a dragon’s).

 
NLP337
 
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NLP337
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11 October 2014 12:16
 

Joseph McMillan;102929 wrote:

Out of curiosity, other than the clip-art, where does the information come from that a gamelyon had the head and mane of a lion? As noted in Dennys, there were three known representations of this beast in English heraldry, all emblazonments of the same arms, and the heads resemble a wolf (long snout, pointed tongue, no mane), a griffin, and a dragon.

I just found an article from the Metropolitan Museum Journal (1991) by Helmut Nickel, curator emeritus of arms and armor at the Metropolitan, entitled "Presents to Princes: A Bestiary of Strange and Wondrous Beasts, Once Known, for a Time Forgotten, and Rediscovered," http://www.metmuseum.org/pubs/journals/1/pdf/1512906.pdf.bannered.pdf at page 133.

 

Nickel says:
Quote:

As we have seen with the Questing Beast, the fictitious heraldry of the Knights of the Round Table knows of manifold strange beasts, such as the dragon on King Arthur’s helmet crest and battle standard, and the dragonlike gampilun (probably based on an exaggerated story about the fierce-looking chameleon, which appears in English heraldry as the gamelyon) assigned to Gawain in Wolfram von Eschenbach’s Parzival .

 


This and the drawing in Dennys suggest to me a lizard’s/dragon’s head, dragon’s wings, a lion’s body, legs, and paws, and a lizard’s tail (without the barb usually found on a dragon’s).


The gamelyon image I’m using was manually created. I had to merge and edit a lion, dragon wings and a barbed tongue from the A.G. clip-art I’m using. I used the suggested blazon from Denny’s:
Quote:

(p. 142 in Dennys’ Heraldic Imagination):

This odd creature makes but one appearance in armory and was evidently conjured up in the mind of Sir William Dethick, Garter King of Arms, who granted to Thomas Gardner of South Brent in Somerset, in July 1557, the following arms: Quarterly gules and azure on a Bend cotised or between two ‘Gamelyons rampant and Volant supporting in their forefoote a Ring or with a Garnett proper’ or a Lion’s head caboshed of the first with a buckle in his mouth silver between two Fleur de Lys sable. In the Queen’s College version the beasts are depicted in trick with lion’s body, legs, feet, and tail, indeterminate bead with slightly turned up snout, and Dragon’s wings. In two College of Arms manuscripts they are depicted like Dragons rampant, while another depicts them like Griffins segreant. Clearly Sir William Dethick had his contemporaries guessing; but as he was considered the most skilful herald of his day, and a member of the original Society of Antiquaries, it is likely that he had some reason for creating this creature.

Until a few minutes ago, I hadn’t seen the image from Denny’s.The head of that rendition is indistinctive, at least to my inexperienced eye. I do wonder if artistic license on my end is appropriate based on the blazon from Sir Dethick and the Queen’s College versions, both of which seem to depict a lion with dragon’s wings? It is interesting that the description mentions an "indeterminate bead [head?] with slightly turned up snout’. In my humble opinion, the two College of Arms manuscripts, which depict the gamelyon like a dragon rampant and a griffin segreant, only add to the confusion of what this beast actually looks like. -shrug-

Would the experts consider my rendition inappropriate, and if so, what are my options?

 
NLP337
 
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11 October 2014 12:44
 

Michael F. McCartney;102928 wrote:

Looks good! - will be interesting to see what different artist’s renditions might look like.

Two technical points:

 

—in the blazon, simply refer to the sun as "counterchanged" rather than "per fess Argent and Vert" - it’s only necessary to specify the colors if they are different from the underlying parted field (e.g. if the sun was red & gold).

 

—the three-color wreath is blazoned as Argent, Vert and Or but isn’t shown that way.  There should be six twists, not seven, and they should be colored white, green, yellow, white, green, yellow.

 

The most common pattern for the wreath or torse (synonyms) is only two alternating colors, e.g. Argent and Vert shown as white, green, white, green, white, green; but three colors is also OK - for example mine is Or, Gules and Azure shown as yellow, red, blue, yellow, red, blue, as shown in our Members Arms roll.  In your case, it’s "on a wreath Argent, Vert and Or…" [no "of"] with the colors alternating white, green, yellow etc. as noted above.

 

The six-twist wreath is standard everywhere except IIRC Italy where there are equally more twists.  Of course, like the points of the coronet in your first proposed version of your crest, the six twists are only what shows in a two-dimensional illustration from the side view - in a carved three-dimentional statue there would be twelve twists looking from above - but six visible twists is the standard convention in a two-dimensional drawing.  Sorry if TMO smile Gotcha on the use of ‘countercharged’ vs. per fesse.

 

Oh, do you have any input on the question that Mr. McMillan brought up concerning the appearance of the beastie?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 October 2014 21:38
 

I’d never heard of this particular beastie before this design thread so nothing to add - sorry!

But I googled gamelyon & found a wiki article (some sort of reference for gamers I think) with a brief description and a clean, simple outline drawing - essentially body, legs and tail of a lion, dragon wings, and head of maybe a wolf with a tongue ending in a barbed point (though the written description said forked tongue).

 

Only FWIW - as noted above, I don’t recall ever seeing or reading about this beastie before this design thread.  Always something more to learn!

 
NLP337
 
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12 October 2014 22:08
 

I was playing with an idea for a badge:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f173/clayprince337/f2b44d1b-2890-4979-ac07-358efd61e5ef_zps4adb53ba.png

 

FWIW, I’m willing to consider ‘non-lion head’ proposals from any artist I work with in the future. I had looked at the Alphyn, which is a wolf, so a Gamelyon that ends up with a wolf-like head wouldn’t be too much of a stretch. We’ll see what comes out of a future emblazonment.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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12 October 2014 23:07
 

Back to the Gamelyon:  I could "see" the head of the picture in Joe’s find being a wolf’s or dragon’s head.. And (in the gaming community mostly) I’m seeing both and have no further valid reference.

I will note that the SCA using the same reference, has decided not to allow the use of the Gamelyon in blazon because there is no definitive knowledge of what it was.. <grin>

 

You could blazon your beastie as it’s component parts.. Lion rampant with dragon wings or something…

 

AND… I think getting the shield done before the Crest or Badge is advisable…

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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13 October 2014 04:00
 

Went back to Google (or maybe Bing) and searched for "Gamelyon Heraldry". First page of results included two links to the heraldic gamelyon (with other links not relevant to our process).  Both described it as a lion with dragon’s wings; one said with dragon’s barbed tongue, one said forked tongue, but both images show barbed tongue.  Neither specified a particular non-lion head but the heads in both images had no mane & looked to me more like a dog’s or wolf’s head - IMO both quite attractive, but to each his own artistic preference.

All only FWIW, no doubt a more exhaustive search likely would have turned up any number of differing descriptions and images.  If it was me (which of course it isn’t smile

 

More seriously you could just say "gamelyon" with whatever color(s) you might want to specify, and then either leave the details to each artist or tell the artist which version you are looking for.  The essence of "gamelyon" seems to be a lion with dragon’s wings, which should be distinguishable in small scale or at a distance.  If the color(s) and attitude (e.g. rampant or sejeant) are the same, and in the apparent absence of a consensus mandating some specific non-lion head, the relatively minor differences falling under the label "gamelyon" IMO are/should be considered heraldically interchangeable, and pretty clearly not some other somewhat similar recognized heraldic beast such as a griffin.

 

My opinion, others may see it differently.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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13 October 2014 07:44
 

Ditto Michael,

But - I think I’d go with a head less "traditionally" lion just to ensure it’s not mistaken for a lion rampant..  more wolf-like or dragon-like could be very interesting options for competent artists..

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 October 2014 08:15
 

Michael F. McCartney;102937 wrote:

All only FWIW, no doubt a more exhaustive search likely would have turned up any number of differing descriptions and images.


No, I think it probably wouldn’t, at least not in any useful way.  Why?  Because the creature seems to appear in only one example of real-world heraldry, as opposed to being attributed by High Middle Ages authors like Wolfram von Eschenbach to pre-heraldic figures like Gawain.  (I exclude SCA uses of the creature from the category of "real" heraldry, but even their discussions of it don’t seem to shed any further light on the matter.)

 

I don’t suppose that Nate’s version looks any more or less like a "real" gamelyon than anyone else’s.

 
NLP337
 
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13 October 2014 09:51
 

Michael F. McCartney said:
Quote:

More seriously you could just say "gamelyon" with whatever color(s) you might want to specify, and then either leave the details to each artist or tell the artist which version you are looking for. The essence of "gamelyon" seems to be a lion with dragon’s wings, which should be distinguishable in small scale or at a distance. If the color(s) and attitude (e.g. rampant or sejeant) are the same, and in the apparent absence of a consensus mandating some specific non-lion head, the relatively minor differences falling under the label "gamelyon" IMO are/should be considered heraldically interchangeable, and pretty clearly not some other somewhat similar recognized heraldic beast such as a griffin.

Michael, this is my current stance and plan when working with any future artists.  While my preference is the use of a lion’s head with mane, I would be willing to consider a more wolf like version.

I guess at the moment, my question is, what kind of opposition or friction could I expect when I register my arms?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 October 2014 10:37
 

NLP337;102940 wrote:

I guess at the moment, my question is, what kind of opposition or friction could I expect when I register my arms?


None, I would imagine.  It would take a pretty arrogant registry to suppose it knew with any precision what a gamelyon looks like.  Anyway, you register the blazon, not the emblazonment.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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14 October 2014 04:11
 

Ditto Joe, though I’m a bit less ready to assume there aren’t arrogant registrars lurking in some quarters - not here surely :(

 
Jeffrey Boyd Garrison
 
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14 October 2014 15:58
 

"As depicted in the margin." raspberry