Richard Jones arms design…

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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06 May 2014 00:15
 

Ditto Joe, especially since the arms will most likely be shown on a white background where the yellow forehead wouldn’t stand out visually.  Not technically a tincture rule issue, but the underlying reason for the rule i.e. visual contrast is still important.

 
mjsmith
 
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mjsmith
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10 June 2014 00:40
 

I received a call from my uncle this evening informing me that he, my mother and my other uncles had decided on a motto for my Grandfather’s arms.  After going into a bit of family history my uncle told me that they originally had considered "The Sword (i.e. Word of God) Demonstrated in Action" but my mother was concerned that "the Sword" might be perceived incorrectly.  So, they simply decided on "The Word Demonstrated in Action".  As in the Word of God demonstrated in the life of my Grandfather.

I found it very fitting and I am so happy that they are participating in the process.  I sometime wonder about how people are going to react when I let them know about my deep interest in Heraldry and I am always surprised that for the most part they have some interest as well.

 

My next move is to add allusion back to the family roots in Wales and I want to do that by translating this into Welsh.  I would like to have it properly translated by someone who actually uses the language in lieu of using a cold (and most likely incorrect) online translation.  I was wondering if anyone had any ideas of who I might contact to do so.  Thanks again to everyone in advance!

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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10 June 2014 01:15
 

I have a native Welsh speaking friend, associated with Llandovery College, "founded and endowed by surgeon Thomas Phillips in 1847 to provide a classical and liberal education in which the Welsh language, the study of Welsh literature and history, were to be cultivated."

I’ll ask him if he can translate.

 

James

 
mjsmith
 
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mjsmith
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10 June 2014 10:23
 

James Dempster;102136 wrote:

I have a native Welsh speaking friend, associated with Llandovery College, "founded and endowed by surgeon Thomas Phillips in 1847 to provide a classical and liberal education in which the Welsh language, the study of Welsh literature and history, were to be cultivated."

I’ll ask him if he can translate.

 

James


That would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you so very much!

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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10 June 2014 16:36
 

Something like: "Mae’r gair Duw y dangoswyd yn gweithredu" perhaps.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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11 June 2014 13:01
 

That’s a mouthful!  You might consider specifying the motto in both languages, at the individual family member’s option.

Repeating earlier comments (mine & others) this design process, with broad family involvement, is exemplary!  If/when we compile a selection of design processes for education & inspiration of future use, this thread merits inclusion as a model of how to proceed.

 
mjsmith
 
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mjsmith
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13 December 2014 04:00
 

I’m a bit embarrassed to say it but its taken me forever to get a proper full achievement drawn up.  I set aside any long winded excuses and just say that I wanted to do something special for the mantling and then I remember "Oh yea, I simply HATE drawing mantling!!"

I’ve put it off and put it off drawing and redrawing the mantling.  I’m still not sure I am all that thrilled with this one since I feel that I drew too much inspiration from someone else’s mantling but eventually you just have to be done with it.  I think the colors need some adjusting but I’m not really all that up to changing it right now so I’ll just get your take on what I have.

 

http://i.imgur.com/KzpUtwX.png

 

It is blazoned:

 

Shield: Quarterly Gules and Or, a cross raguly between four acorns counterchanged.

 

Crest: A horse’s head Gules charged upon the neck with a bleeding heart flower (L. spectabilis) Or.

 

For a motto a phrase taken from the Welsh, "Cyfleu Gair Duw trwy Weithred" which is translated "Word of God Demonstrated in Action."

 

I had the Welsh translated by a translation service with actual Welsh speaking individuals so I am pretty confident in its accuracy.  Thanks in advance for taking a look.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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14 December 2014 03:26
 

The arms & crest are beautiful! - and the horse’s head is especially nice! The style of mantling not so much - a bit busy for my taste, especially the embattled edges; but that’s purely a matter of artistic interpretation - de gustibus & all that - not an intrinsic part of the arms.  Any artist could draw the mantling in whatever style he thinks might best fit a given context, and differently for other contexts, all equally correct heraldically.

IMO a simpler style would generally be preferable; but if you prefer fancier, how about something resembling the edges of oak leaves, reflecting the acorn theme of the arms themselves? (Some recent renditions of the arms of Canada have the mantling resembling maple leaves, reflecting the maple leaf in the arms themselves.)

 

In any case, congratulations to you and yours for arriving at such a good result, and even more for the group effort to involve and best represent your grandfather.

 
mjsmith
 
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mjsmith
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15 December 2014 03:19
 

Michael F. McCartney;103203 wrote:

...the style of mantling not so much - a bit busy for my taste, especially the embattled edges; but that’s purely a matter of artistic interpretation


Well, there is a bit of a method to my madness.  This is actually the beginning of a "family tree" of sorts that I have planned.  I am planning on using masculine and feminine arms (as requested by my mother).  The largest mantling for my grandfather and grandmother, somewhat smaller mantling for my uncles and mother, then arms and crest for grandchildren.  For great-grandchildren 13 and older I was thinking of using a horse’s head and a bleeding heart flower for boys and girls respectively.  For great-grandchildren (and now great-great-grandchildren) under 13, red and gold acorns.

 

I figure its a way to involve everyone and incorporate all of the elements of the arms to tie everyone together, though I will be using my own arms for myself and my branch of the family.  It’s also a way to create a living document of sorts, updating certain elements as children come of age.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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15 December 2014 10:41
 

Matthew, I know you want to be done with it, but I have one suggestion that I think will significantly improve the overall appearance of the achievement and really shouldn’t be any trouble at all. Beef up the outline of the mantling to at least as thick as the outline of the motto scroll. The mantling is bold, but that outline is very weak.

 
 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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17 December 2014 01:29
 

Second Ken’s suggestion, for whatever form(s) of mantling you may use.

As to your last post, re: some sort of armorial family tree, I’m not clear as to what you have in mind.  Is this something about different mantling for each gender and/or generation?  Or some form of altering the arms and/or crest?

 

As to gender, there is the traditional option of shield for guys and lozenges or ovals for girls - not a requirement in our heraldic tradition in the U.S. but OK for those here who want to use it.

 

As for generational differencing, there are various forms of cadency which preserve the central design as a unifying symbol with relatively minor differences to mark each bearer’s place in the tree - again optional here and generally not used, the unity of the family, rather than distinctions within the family, being paramount.

 

Or possibly your intent is merely to vary the style of mantling, and/or to add charges to the mantling?  I’m not aware of this being done in a systematic way, but I don’t think it would violate any heraldic rule.

 

Or maybe you have something in mind that I haven’t thought of!

 

Of course choosing (or rejecting) any of these options is up to you & yours, but can’t help being curious!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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17 December 2014 07:58
 

Up to you, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to do anything that would vest mantling with symbolic significance and imply to the person bearing the arm that his or her mantling must be depicted in a particular way.

 
mjsmith
 
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mjsmith
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17 December 2014 19:36
 

My last post seems to be being misunderstood.  My next project is to make one large family tree type graphic representing all of my grandfather’s descendants on it.  My grandparents will be represented on this image by my grandfathers full achievement with this, as Michael put it "busy" mantling.

My uncles will have the exact same undifferenced achievement but with a simpler mantling.  My mother, being the matriarch of our family now, has requested to have herself represented with a feminine achievement (ie. some type of cartouche or lozenge).

 

Grandson’s are represented with the exact same achievement with either a simple mantling or none at all.  I will use my own arms in this manner on this document in order to show deference to my grandfather and uncles.

 

Since my mother has requested feminine arms, then all the women on this document will have feminine arms unless their husband has arms of his own.  We’re not being sexist but we do recognize that men and women are not the same and those differences should be celebrated.

 

Adult great grandchildren would be represented with the same achievement, sans mantling.  Generally speaking, children do not bear arms but need to be represented in this document.  For this, I am taking elements of the arms to do so.  Teenaged male children would be represented by a red horse head, as the red horse in the crest represents my grandfather.  Teenaged female children would be represented by the bleeding heart flower as that represents my grandmother in the crest.  Adolescent children would be represented by a red (male) or gold (female) acorn as those represent my uncles and my mother in my grandfather’s arms.

 

I am not proposing any sort of differencing whatsoever.  I’m a proponent of having each generation bear the same arms as the original armiger.  Any differencing would be up to my other family members and would not be proposed by me.  I will be sure that it is clearly understood that these are one arms for all and that there is no reason that anyone of them couldn’t display the mantling anyway they wanted to or with no mantling at all.

 

This is just meant to be a personal family document and not a declaration of any sort of family differencing.  It’s more along the lines of the rendering of arms that others have posted on the forum showing the charges from their crest supporting their arms.

 

To me its more of a way to involve everyone in this on some level rather than the arms being something that belongs to some distant relative.  If one of my uncles grandchildren who are so young and will never know who my grandfather is see’s this some time in the future, maybe it will get them to asking questions about who this is and how it relates to them.

 

Honestly, we can sit and preach the proper and improper way to display an armorial achievement until we are blue in the face but most people are still not going to care.  Until we take the arms down off the shelf and pass them around and make them mean something to the people who they belong to then they really are nothing more than a pretty picture in a book, soon to be forgotten.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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18 December 2014 03:35
 

Ah - just (!) a one-time artistic "shorthand" to reduce the clutter of repeating the full-blown achievement for everyone shown on the pedigree.  Should be interesting to see the finished product! (Hint, hint smile )

 
Brad Smith
 
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Brad Smith
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18 December 2014 10:17
 

I’d like to see the end product as well. :p