Arms for a Friar

 
egerland
 
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egerland
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03 February 2015 00:02
 

For a friend of mine, a Franciscan friar and Episcopal priest.  He has connections to Wales, England and Scotland.

http://s30.postimg.org/fcmuh8rpp/Br_Derek_2.jpg

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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03 February 2015 00:41
 

Nice! - simple and distinctive design, well presented.  If he should ever need to impale (e.g. with parish arms, or if he becomes abbot or bishop or whatever) they should go well with the institutional arms.

What is, and how do you blazon, the yellow vertical charge?

and do the red & white arms on the little shield in dexter chief pertain to his religious order, abbey, parish etc.?

 
egerland
 
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egerland
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03 February 2015 08:39
 

I was hoping someone here could blazon this for me.  The shield in the dexter chief is composed of the arms of the City of London and the arms of the Order of St John.  He is a freeman of the City and a member of the Order.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 February 2015 09:51
 

egerland;103488 wrote:

I was hoping someone here could blazon this for me. The shield in the dexter chief is composed of the arms of the City of London and the arms of the Order of St John. He is a freeman of the City and a member of the Order.


I strongly, strongly recommend omitting them, then.

 

(1) Being a freeman of the city and a member of the order don’t entitle him to marshal their arms with his, even in this form. The Order of St. John in particular has its own strict heraldic rules, and this would be against them.

i

(2) They just clutter up what is otherwise a rather nice design.

 

It’s only possible to blazon the design if you can tell us what the gold charge is supposed to be.  A pile reversed?  "Barry wavy of eight Argent and Azure a
<hr class=“bbcode_rule” >
?
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Or."

 

Also, what is it that entitles him to red cords and tassels, and two of them on each side?  Looking at the Anglican system of clerical hats as shown in Von Volborth’s Heraldry:  Customs, Rules, and Styles, only deans, canons, and prebendaries use red tassels, and three per side.  And no one in the Anglican system appears to use red cords, although a doctor of divinity uses cords of intertwined black and red.  Has the system changed to include a hat with two-tassels-per-side?  (I don’t mean this as confrontational; what’s shown in Volborth may well have changed.  But it’s important to get it right.)

 
egerland
 
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egerland
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03 February 2015 11:11
 

The pile represents a ford across a river.

Re the small shield:  I’m told one of the pursuivants at the CoA took a look and advised placing the City of London on the left and the Order half on the right (with no royal crest), a remark which did not sink in until I started thinking about your comments.  I’ll reverse them, which leaves two generic red and white crosses.

 

The tassels are based on client advice.  He’s been a priest/dean for many years and I defer to his knowledge in this.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 February 2015 13:49
 

If he is a dean in the Church of England, he’s entitled to three red tassels on each side, not two, but hanging from black cords, not red.

This is based on two sources reporting the content of the 1976 Earl Marshal’s warrant on this subject.  If you’ve already checked with the College of Arms on the little escutcheon, you may want to check with them on the hat.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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03 February 2015 14:36
 

Can’t comment on the cords & tassles (lapsed Presbyterian, de facto Methodist smile ).

Re: the little shield in the upper corner - ditto Joe; think Bauhaus (simpler & less is best).  Also, the St John half of the little shield is redundant since the cross of that order is (quite properly AFAIK) suspended below the main shield.

 

The yellow stripe is visually nice and distinctive, just not sure how to blazon it.

"A pile reversed throughout" might be a bit too fat at the bottom and would end in a point at the top.

Maybe "a pile reversed throughout and couped in chief" might work.

Or maybe a pale, but not sure how to express the narrowing.

 

Not suggesting you omit the stripe - it’s too nice &distinctive to lose - just hoping someone here can supply a proper blazon.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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07 February 2015 08:35
 

Joseph McMillan;103497 wrote:

If he is a dean in the Church of England, he’s entitled to three red tassels on each side, not two, but hanging from black cords, not red.

This is based on two sources reporting the content of the 1976 Earl Marshal’s warrant on this subject.  If you’ve already checked with the College of Arms on the little escutcheon, you may want to check with them on the hat.


I strongly concur. As far as I know there is no hat in the Anglican system with two red tassels hanging from red cords. I don’t think you should rely on the client for this. Respectfully, I believe he is mistaken.

 
liongam
 
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liongam
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08 February 2015 06:25
 

Dear Tom,

Regarding the placement of a small shield in the dexter chief of the proposed arms of your friend, the friar, I doubt very much that the College (or even that a pursuivant at the College) would allow such a shield because placing a charge or charges on a shield of whatever shape is in essence creating an entirely new (unofficial) coat of arms, apart from the fact that however laudable one cannot marry up two known distinct coats of arms (ie: the arms of the City of London and those of the Most Venerable Order) otherwise there is a risk that such a shield will have a tendency to look to the uninitiated like an augmentation of honour apart from an unauthorized use of another’s arms. Certainly I would imagine that the Kings of Arms would baulk at such a suggestion

 

Also one needs to be careful when representing the insignia of the Order of St John.  If your friend is either a Member (grade 5) or an Officer (grade 4) within the order, his insignia should be pendant from a straight ribbon, whereas if he is a Commander (grade 3) his insignia should be pendant from a neck ribbon.  Also the badge of a Member is all silver, whilst the badges of both an Officer and a Commander are silver enamelled white.

 

As I gather that as your friend is undoubtedly proud of being both a Freeman of the City of London and member (with a small ‘m’) of the Most Venerable Order there would be no bar in painting representations of the arms of the City of London, the Most Venerable Order and, perhaps, the Priory of the United States of America of the Most Venerable Order if a member of that priory (here I presume that he is) as external decorations to a painting of his arms.

 

With every good wish

 

John

 

PS: Tom, I know you are an Officer of the Most Venerable Order, so I am not attempting to tell my granny how to suck eggs here, but merely to illustrate the topic of how the badges of the order should be pendant from their particular ribbons for those uninitiated with such niceties. J

 
egerland
 
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egerland
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04 March 2015 13:52
 

Thanks to all for their input.  I’ve incorporated most of the suggested changes and appreciate the help!