Medal/Ribbon Bars in Cheif

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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06 April 2015 07:48
 

Please note:

1.  All images acquired via the internet and used for fair reporting, for the purposes of criticism, comment, news reporting, and teaching.

2.  I wasn’t sure where to place this discussion.  My apologies if I chose incorrectly.

Within the last month or so, a painter on social media has been providing some innovative ideas to emblazon American arms.  One such idea is the painting of medal ribbon patterns in chief as seen below (The first appears to be the Order of Orange-Nassau and the second and third appear to be the Bronze Star):

 

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1409&stc=1&d=1428319706

 

The AHS Guidelines discuss the placement of decoration and honors.  Examples of such are (2 US, 2 Canadian):

 

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1410&stc=1&d=1428320280

 

I would like to know the membership’s thoughts on using the medal/ribbon patterns in chief for US coat of arms.  I would ask membership to stick to subject at hand—use of medal/ribbon bar patterns in chief and not digress to headgear or quality of emblazon.. We can certainly take those up elsewhere if the membership thinks appropriate.

 
liongam
 
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liongam
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06 April 2015 08:17
 

Dear Kathy,

However laudable the notion of using medal ribbons in the chiefs of arms I do not think it is correct from an traditional heraldic point of view.  Aesthetics also come into play here.  Such ribbons are inherently personal to the individual awarded such medals.  Do you venture to posit that the display of such ribbons would be temporary during the lifetime of the armiger or hereditary?  If the former, the traditional display of the insignia of orders and decorations (and, perhaps, medals in the USA) should be sufficient as per the AHS guidelines.  The addition of ribbon to a chief is more akin to an augmentation to borne by the descendants of the armiger concerned.  Again, there is a risk of cramming in too much detail that detracts from the arms in question, as mentioned before on this forum there is no need for arms to become a CV otherwise where to do we stop?

 

With every good wish

 

John

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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06 April 2015 08:38
 

liongam;103769 wrote:

Dear Kathy,

Do you venture to posit that the display of such ribbons would be temporary during the lifetime of the armiger or hereditary?


John,

 

I am endeavoring to see what other’s opinions are - I did not intend to imply I am in favor of the "new" form of display.  I apologize if I did imply any specific opinion in the original post.

 

Be well,

Kathy

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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06 April 2015 08:58
 

I do not care for this innovation.  It confuses the design of the shield and is far too busy, particularly in cases where the shield design involves a chief.  Several of the more common ribbons violate basic rules of heraldry.

I don’t understand the desire to broadcast one’s personal awards in such a way.  It seems too showy.  Although not true in every case, my general expectation is that armigers have held a commission and have personal awards.  Isn’t it enough to wear one’s miniatures for formal occasions or have a shadowbox?

 
liongam
 
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liongam
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06 April 2015 11:08
 

Dear Kathy,

I completely understand that you posed a question in order garner people’s opinion.  I had not meant to criticize your raising the topic.  I apologize if it sounded that way.

 

As ever and humbly

 

John

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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06 April 2015 11:55
 

Kathy McClurg;103770 wrote:

John,

I am endeavoring to see what other’s opinions are - I did not intend to imply I am in favor of the "new" form of display.  I apologize if I did imply any specific opinion in the original post.

 

Be well,

Kathy


I agree with John.  Such personal awards and decorations as the Bronze Star Medal should depend from the bottom of the shield.

 

Not to say the ribbons cannot be used in a personal context ... here’s the lip of my pipe bag:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y306/rgr1480/Top-Beading_Ribbon-Bar2_zpsadvsi7lp.jpg

Viewed from the reverse side.

Meritorious Service Medal, Army Commendation Medal, etc.

 

Obverse:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y306/rgr1480/Front_zpscobcvyky.jpg

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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06 April 2015 16:21
 

liongam;103772 wrote:

Dear Kathy,

I completely understand that you posed a question in order garner people’s opinion.  I had not meant to criticize your raising the topic.  I apologize if it sounded that way.

 

As ever and humbly

 

John


No worries, John.  I the "do you" I took as a personal instead of rhetorical.  wink

 

Guy!  Love the pipe bag!

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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06 April 2015 16:51
 

Ditto the above negative reactions.

Arguably innovative, or at least unusual, but not a good idea for the reasons already noted.  Might be different if there was not already a long-standing, well understood and until now exclusive manner for display of these awards, both here and elsewhere arms are used; but given a long-standing, well-understood and universal practice, this is an unnecessary and unwarranted approach that only introduces clutter, confusion and uncertainty for no good reason.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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06 April 2015 21:19
 

It’s never clear to me why "innovative" is a good thing in any of the traditional arts.  It’s as if someone decided to be innovative by writing a haiku five lines long, with eight syllables in the first, second, and fith lines and five each in the third and fourth.

It’s not a good thing when innovative heraldry is to heraldry as limerick is to haiku.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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06 April 2015 22:38
 

"There was a young herald from Nantucket…"

Innovation has been/can be good ( or not) if it’s some creative approach to heraldic art - maybe a particularly nice new treatment of mantling, or a well-designed new partition line; or in crafting new rules addressing new social phenomen, e.g. same-sex marriage or open adoption; if repeat if not destructively or confusingly inconsistent with long-standing general practice.  Not every attempt will be successful, but nothing tried, nothing gained.

 

IMO the innovation in question fails this test, for any or all of the reasons stated above, and perhaps for others we haven’t yet thought of!

 

In fairness to the unnamed artist, the rest of the artwork is pretty nice, though on the small screen of my tablet I can’t really make out the crests.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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06 April 2015 23:25
 

Ditto much of what was said above, but I’ll add my two cents now.  This innovation has several problems.

1.  First is recognition and clarity in what they are:  Is this a ribbon bar or just a chief that happens to have the same pattern as a ribbon bar?

2.  Assuming these are intended to be ribbon bars, they are being used as an augmentation?  The US does not award augmentations for heraldic display.  The individual was awarded a medal, not a heraldic augmentation.

3.  If it’s acceptable in US heraldry to use a ribbon bar as an augmentation on arms, why can’t I just pick one of dad’s WWII medals and place one in chief on my arms to honor his service to the country?  We are generously assuming these are the medal recipients - what if they aren’t?  How does one tell?  Where is the line?

4.  If these folks assume arms whether blazoned as an "augmentation" or with a more traditional blazon of pales, fimbriations, etc., is it heritable?

5.  What if I just happen to like the pattern of the service ribbon of the medal of honor?  Maybe I could place a fess with that pattern on my arms.

In my opinion, this is all a very, very slippery slope which no military person who also understands heraldry would endorse.  At best it’s ignorance, in the middle it’s bad heraldry, at worst it is disrespectful and can easily become a case of stolen valor.

 

I think the acid test of these will be whether or not the respected, established registries (national or international) will accept these "augmentations" or fanciful chiefs as a part of registration.  I sincerely hope they do not.  IMHO it would reduce the registry’s credibility in the wider heraldic community.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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06 April 2015 23:42
 

Kathy McClurg;103782 wrote:

I think the acid test of these will be whether or not the respected, established registries (national or international) will accept these "augmentations" or fanciful chiefs as a part of registration. I sincerely hope they do not. IMHO it would reduce the registry’s credibility in the wider heraldic community.


This highlights the problem even more. Let’s suppose what we’re talking about is a Navy Cross: will the respected registries necessarily recognize a chief Azure a pale Argent as being a reference to the Navy Cross? A chief tierced per pale Azure, Or, and Gules as a reference to the Navy and Marine Corps Medal for non-combat heroism?

 

For that matter, what would keep me from replacing the stars in my arms with a chief Azure (or Bleu celeste) five mullets two and three Argent? Who, me, pretending to be a Medal of Honor recipient? Naw, man, just a cool graphic design!

 

I think that before heraldic artists set themselves up as the founders of new heraldic customs, they ought first to learn something about heraldry.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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07 April 2015 04:20
 

Yeah, I like this cool pattern.  Perhaps I’ll change my arms.  Can someone help with the blazon?  (I just couldn’t resist showing an extreme possibility).

http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1412&stc=1&d=1428394679

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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07 April 2015 08:29
 

Not to beat a dead horse, but this irritates me more every time I think about it.

Given that there is an established way, recognized internationally, of displaying orders and decorations with arms, isn’t the suggestion that the US should do it differently an implication that our decorations are somehow different from other countries’ decorations?  And if different, then better?  Or worse?  Is this person—oh, the hell with it, is she—going to propose to the French a red chief instead of the Legion of Honor below the shield, or to the British a sanguine chief instead of the VC below the shield?

 
David Pope
 
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07 April 2015 14:10
 

I suppose the cammie-covered Kevlar and the tricorn hat are also American-specific innovations.  Perhaps we don’t rate helms, either…

smile

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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07 April 2015 16:29
 

David Pope;103787 wrote:

I suppose the cammie-covered Kevlar and the tricorn hat are also American-specific innovations.  Perhaps we don’t rate helms, either…

smile


Hi David,

I did start a separate thread on Headgear..