Alternative Heraldic Headgear

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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08 April 2015 18:32
 

zebulon;103815 wrote:

While I’m not sure about a social class assertion, I largely agree otherwise. In the complete absence of either a sanction of legitimacy or protection of law, arms just become a silly and archaic affectation, and the armiger becomes not very different from a man strolling down the street wearing a monocle and a bowler (unfortunately).


So 90% of the people in the world bearing arms, some of many generations standing, are silly and affected?  Sanctions of "legitimacy" and protection of law are the exception in the heraldic world, not the norm.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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08 April 2015 19:26
 

Joseph McMillan;103819 wrote:

So 90% of the people in the world bearing arms, some of many generations standing, are silly and affected?


You’‘ll have to decide that for yourself.

 

David Pope said "users of heraldry" and it was to that which I was replying.


Joseph McMillan;103819 wrote:

Sanctions of "legitimacy" and protection of law are the exception in the heraldic world, not the norm.


Your statement, correctly worded, would be:

 

Sanctions of "legitimacy" and protection of law are the exception in the world, not the norm.

 

I’ve stricken the word "heraldic." The heraldic world and the astronomical object Earth do not share a common territory. The heraldic world is the world of heralds and the profession of heraldry. Your original statement is nonsensical and self-disproving.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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08 April 2015 20:34
 

zebulon;103820 wrote:

I’ve stricken the word "heraldic." The heraldic world and the astronomical object Earth do not share a common territory. The heraldic world is the world of heralds and the profession of heraldry. Your original statement is nonsensical and self-disproving.


You may wish to further review the uses and definitions of the word "world."  Joe’s use is not incorrect.

 

The heraldic world includes people with an interest in heraldry of which the people who work in the profession of heraldry is a rather small subset.

 

Your point of view is narrow minded and incorrect.  When a point is made which disagrees with you point of view, you appear to resort to off topic and somewhat denigrating comments.

 

It’s all quite simple.  Personal heraldry is now and has historically been acquired by assumption of arms.  For those cultures which require some outside entity or government to sanction their arms, that’s certainly their choice.  Whether silly or not is a subjective opinion.  I think it’s silly to pay not insubstantial sums for something anyone is entitled to have without government interference.  Although I’d love to see a national registry similar to the CHA’s online presence, my reasons for supporting the idea has nothing to do with "sanctioning" or "legitimizing" arms in this country.

 

Now, what were we talking about?  OH, yes, the merit of alternative heraldic headgear… smile

 
David Pope
 
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David Pope
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08 April 2015 20:46
 

Kathy,

Are you envisioning the academic bonnet used in place of a crest, or with a crest?  If with, would the crest emerge from a torse?  Just trying to get a picture in my mind.

 

David

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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08 April 2015 20:52
 

David Pope;103824 wrote:

Kathy,

Are you envisioning the academic bonnet used in place of a crest, or with a crest?  If with, would the crest emerge from a torse?  Just trying to get a picture in my mind.

 

David


Actually in place of helm/crest/mantle - just the academic hat and robes of the appropriate rank and institution.  For example, my brother is a PhD earned at Purdue University.  His hat would be a mortar board, black with black tassel.  Robes black with black "stripes" and the hood collar would be blue for Management.

 

Now, what I would like to discuss with the artist would be the crest (because his son would not rate the academic robes, my brother’s crest.. should it be in the display? if so, where.. I would tend to think either "floating" above the mortar board OR possibly somehow to the side of the display… I’d discuss the options with the artist - after all his job is the art.. wink

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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08 April 2015 22:07
 

Kathy McClurg;103823 wrote:

The heraldic world includes people with an interest in heraldry


No, that’s simply not correct, etymologically or otherwise.

 

The "heraldic world" is the world of heralds and the profession of heraldry, therefore, it is not true that "Sanctions of "legitimacy" and protection of law are the exception in the heraldic world, not the norm" as non-"sanctioning" jurisdictions, by definition, do not have heralds and are, therefore, not part of the "heraldic world."

 

The "military" does not include war gamers, WWII history buffs, and paintball teams. What occurs in the U.S. is heraldic paintball. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we call a horse a horse. (cue a thousand examples that prove the rule ... "but but but, in 1772 the Virginia House of Burgesses passed a resolution that said derp derp derp")

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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08 April 2015 22:11
 

Kathy McClurg;103825 wrote:

Actually in place of helm/crest/mantle - just the academic hat and robes of the appropriate rank and institution.  For example, my brother is a PhD earned at Purdue University.  His hat would be a mortar board, black with black tassel.


Sorry, I haven’t followed this conversation from the start, so forgive me if this has already been addressed, but why wouldn’t it be a doctoral bonnet?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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08 April 2015 22:15
 

Would depend on what sort of headgear that university uses for that degree.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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08 April 2015 22:21
 

Michael F. McCartney;103828 wrote:

Would depend on what sort of headgear that university uses for that degree.


Why would that be?

 

Is one only permitted to display a helmet if one is in physical possession of a steel-plate helmet at the moment of emblazonment?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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08 April 2015 23:05
 

zebulon;103826 wrote:

No, that’s simply not correct, etymologically or otherwise.

The "heraldic world" is the world of heralds and the profession of heraldry, therefore, it is not true that "Sanctions of "legitimacy" and protection of law are the exception in the heraldic world, not the norm" as non-"sanctioning" jurisdictions, by definition, do not have heralds and are, therefore, not part of the "heraldic world."


Etymologically, you may have a case.  Otherwise, you don’t.  "Heraldry" has for hundreds years been the term applied to the study of what Anthony Wagner termed "the systematic use of hereditary emblems centered on the shield," which was his definition of heraldry.  He was Garter Principal King of Arms and perhaps the leading British scholar on the subject of the second half of the 20th century.

 

This is why countries that have no heralds and where the use of armorial emblems was never regulated or constrained nevertheless have organizations for the study of heraldry, and why the Académie Internationale d’Héraldique actually has relatively few professional heralds among its academicians.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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09 April 2015 00:30
 

Joseph McMillan;103830 wrote:

Etymologically, you may have a case.  Otherwise, you don’t.  "Heraldry" has for hundreds years been the term applied to the study of what Anthony Wagner termed "the systematic use of hereditary emblems centered on the shield," which was his definition of heraldry.  He was Garter Principal King of Arms and perhaps the leading British scholar on the subject of the second half of the 20th century.


Wagner was right; it seems you’ve just misinterpreted him to enforce self-legitimization. Armorial bearings in the U.S. are not hereditary as they cannot form part of an inheritance.* "Hereditary" is a word with an actual definition, it’s not a poetic flourish.

 

Charles Boutelle said "heraldry means all the duties of a herald" which underscores the basic fact that the "heraldic world," as I’ve said and is commonly accepted outside the echo chamber of the heraldic enthusiasts,  means those jurisdictions where there are heralds.

 

* Sure, you can self-declare you’ve passed your arms to your son, just like you can self-declare you’ve passed ownership of the Moon to your son. There is no way your son can enforce ownership of either the Moon or your arms. Ergo, they’re not inheritable. Saying you’ve matriculated arms in the U.S. (or Paraguay, or Cameroon, or Mongolia) is a fun, play thing, like Michael Jackson saying he’s the King of Pop. Michael was not literally the royal head of state of the sovereign Kingdom of Pop, it was just a fun thing. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with that, we just need to be clear to differentiate what is "fun" and what is real.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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09 April 2015 05:39
 

zebulon;103826 wrote:

No, that’s simply not correct, etymologically or otherwise.

The "heraldic world" is the world of heralds and the profession of heraldry, therefore, it is not true that "Sanctions of "legitimacy" and protection of law are the exception in the heraldic world, not the norm" as non-"sanctioning" jurisdictions, by definition, do not have heralds and are, therefore, not part of the "heraldic world."

 

The "military" does not include war gamers, WWII history buffs, and paintball teams. What occurs in the U.S. is heraldic paintball. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we call a horse a horse. (cue a thousand examples that prove the rule ... "but but but, in 1772 the Virginia House of Burgesses passed a resolution that said derp derp derp")


Nope, you are wrong and your analogy does not apply. Sorry.  One definition of "world" is:  All that relates to a particular sphere of activity.  Much that relates to the activity of heraldry takes place outside the profession of heraldry.  Heraldry is not confined to professional heralds.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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09 April 2015 06:06
 

zebulon wrote:

No, that’s simply not correct, etymologically or otherwise.

Kathy McClurg;103834 wrote:

Nope, you are wrong


No, you are.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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09 April 2015 06:24
 

Kathy McClurg;103834 wrote:

One definition of "world" is:


I think I’m going to elect, at this time, not to participate in arguments centered on whether Webster’s New World Dictionary offers hidden and undiscovered insights into heraldry. The Grand Duke of Sealand uses the dictionary to prove he’s running his own state, too, as do all the $99.95 internet viscounts. Once the dictionary comes off the shelf that’s my cue to bow out.

 

All the very best,

Max

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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09 April 2015 06:34
 

zebulon;103831 wrote:

Wagner was right; it seems you’ve just misinterpreted him to enforce self-legitimization. Armorial bearings in the U.S. are not hereditary as they cannot form part of an inheritance.* "Hereditary" is a word with an actual definition, it’s not a poetic flourish.


So there is no such thing as the use or continuation of customs through inheritance (the passing down from mother to daughter or father to son)?

 

For example, my family always has sauerkraut and pork for New Years Dinner.. my mother’s family, her mothers family, and back some distance has inherited this custom.  Can the custom (obviously not legally enforceable) be considered inherited?

 

Similarly can my use of my arms not be passed to my child as an inheritance?

 

Or, say - Dad is a great furniture maker.  He trains his son and passes techniques which his father taught him.  Has the son inherited these family traditions?

 

In the majority of locations where heraldry is in use, heraldry is a custom and tradition - not part of a legal system.  Accepting that only those which were part of a legal system of heraldry are the only authorities on the subject is absurdly narrow minded.

 

The US is a very young country from a heraldic point of view and is still defining it’s way - some of the use of inherited symbols are long family custom brought from a country on the other side of the pond, some is "new"... Complicating this is the influx of different traditions from different "home" countries.  There is no reason whatsoever for a US citizen assuming or using heraldry themselves or within their family should not pass that custom of use to their children.

 

Can or should there be some sort of "legalization" or "regulation" in the US? There are decent arguments both sides of that fence.  For the most part, I haven’t seen rampant "stealing" of one’s heraldic devices.  A few, but generally by misinformed or uneducated in the customs and traditional uses of heraldry.

 

There are customs, courtesies and traditions passed from generation to generation.  These are inherited - granted a broad use of the term - but not an uncommon use.  Heraldry is included among these in the United States should a family decide to include it.