Alternative Heraldic Headgear

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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09 April 2015 06:52
 

zebulon;103836 wrote:

I think I’m going to elect, at this time, not to participate in arguments centered on whether Webster’s New World Dictionary offers hidden and undiscovered insights into heraldry. The Grand Duke of Sealand uses the dictionary to prove he’s running his own state, too, as do all the $99.95 internet viscounts. Once the dictionary comes off the shelf that’s my cue to bow out.

All the very best,

Max


Actually - I went for Oxford because your issue was with Joe’s use of a word, rather than his point.  You took it there, Max.  Arguing misuse of "world" "hereditary" etc..  in the most narrow terms.

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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09 April 2015 07:13
 

Kathy McClurg;103837 wrote:

So there is no such thing as the use or continuation of customs through inheritance (the passing down from mother to daughter or father to son)?

For example, my family always has sauerkraut and pork for New Years Dinner.. my mother’s family, her mothers family, and back some distance has inherited this custom.  Can the custom (obviously not legally enforceable) be considered inherited?

 

Similarly can my use of my arms not be passed to my child as an inheritance?

 

Or, say - Dad is a great furniture maker.  He trains his son and passes techniques which his father taught him.  Has the son inherited these family traditions?

 

In the majority of locations where heraldry is in use, heraldry is a custom and tradition - not part of a legal system.  Accepting that only those which were part of a legal system of heraldry are the only authorities on the subject is absurdly narrow minded.

 

The US is a very young country from a heraldic point of view and is still defining it’s way - some of the use of inherited symbols are long family custom brought from a country on the other side of the pond, some is "new"... Complicating this is the influx of different traditions from different "home" countries.  There is no reason whatsoever for a US citizen assuming or using heraldry themselves or within their family should not pass that custom of use to their children.

 

Can or should there be some sort of "legalization" or "regulation" in the US? There are decent arguments both sides of that fence.  For the most part, I haven’t seen rampant "stealing" of one’s heraldic devices.  A few, but generally by misinformed or uneducated in the customs and traditional uses of heraldry.

 

There are customs, courtesies and traditions passed from generation to generation.  These are inherited - granted a broad use of the term - but not an uncommon use.  Heraldry is included among these in the United States should a family decide to include it.

 


Sauerkraut, huh? That is, hands down, the most tortured labyrinth of connections to support self-legitimization I’ve seen so far. And there have been some real doozies. (Though, I have to admit, it was a more interesting read than the usual "there was a case in 1685 in the Court of Oyer and Terminer in which every fourth letter of the judgment, stringed together, read ... ")

 

Let this go down as the "sauerkraut precedent."

 

To all to whom these Presents shall come, greetings! I hereby claim arms by right of the Sauerkraut Precedent on this the 9th day of April, in the year of our Lord, two thousand fifteen, and of the leftover batch of sauerkraut the third. Signed in my hand and under my seal, and with the authority of the Rouge Sauerkraut Herald Extraordinary ...

 
zebulon
 
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zebulon
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09 April 2015 07:15
 

Kathy McClurg;103838 wrote:

Actually - I went for Oxford because your issue was with Joe’s use of a word, rather than his point.  You took it there, Max.  Arguing misuse of "world" "hereditary" etc..  in the most narrow terms.


If by "narrow" you mean "accurate," yes, guilty as charged.

 

Listen, though, I get it. No one likes to hear their baby is ugly. And if someone tells you he is, you’ll keep asking around until you can extract a confession from even one person - maybe the kid’s grandmother - that he’s the most beautiful child in the world. But you will never, no one matter what, accept you gave birth to Baby Herman. Most people who pursue heraldic studies do so because they’re interested in scoring some bling and will never be able to process the discovery that their bling is cubic zirconia. They’ll keep digging and digging until a house of cards of disconnected rationalizations can be constructed for a case they can use to convince themselves is air tight. Sometimes communes will form to offer mutual reinforcement of the underlying cognitive error which helps steel its members into an even more impenetrable vault of self-assurance. The same thing occurs with the self-styled orders and the $99.95 internet knighthoods.

 

Anyway, I’m not here to de-program any of the SLers because I don’t think that’s possible. I’m only here to make a passing comment of agreement when someone says something I find agreeable, as I did here. I commented on the social perception of armigery at which time - like clockwork - the same old stories and breathless assurances about how assumption is really legit got dusted off and paraded about for the ten millionth time. This, despite the fact it had nothing to do with my actual comment:  social perception in the world outside the echo chamber. I’ve brought this up before and no one addresses it, instead promptly deluging me with the minutes of a 1764 meeting of the Lord Proprietors of Carolina, or something they found scribbled in the sidebar of an ante-bellum docket slip in the Bossier Parish Court, or some other piece of obscure and meaningless legal trivia that is elevated to a kind-of bizarre "gotcha!" moment. It’s the same ridiculous script the SLers works through every time. No matter what anyone says, the script just gets dusted off and blasted out, even if it makes absolutely no sense within the context of the conversation.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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09 April 2015 09:31
 

zebulon;103839 wrote:

Sauerkraut, huh? That is, hands down, the most tortured labyrinth of connections to support self-legitimization I’ve seen so far. And there have been some real doozies. (Though, I have to admit, it was a more interesting read than the usual "there was a case in 1685 in the Court of Oyer and Terminer in which every fourth letter of the judgment, stringed together, read ... ")

Let this go down as the "sauerkraut precedent."

 

To all to whom these Presents shall come, greetings! I hereby claim arms by right of the Sauerkraut Precedent on this the 9th day of April, in the year of our Lord, two thousand fifteen, and of the leftover batch of sauerkraut the third. Signed in my hand and under my seal, and with the authority of the Rouge Sauerkraut Herald Extraordinary ...


Are you assuming I’m attempting to legitimize something?  I am not.  I have assumed arms and they are legitimate.  Fact.  I was merely explaining to you, in the most basic terms possible, that customs and traditions, such as heraldry, are inherited.

 

But, rather than accept this, you persist in being condescending and narrow minded.  I do not need precedent nor any other authority than my own to assume arms and pass them as I see fit to my family.  Nor do I have to prove that I don’t need these things to any other person.

 

Now - wasn’t this thread about the merits of alternative head gear?

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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09 April 2015 09:40
 

zebulon;103840 wrote:

Most people who pursue heraldic studies do so because they’re interested in scoring some bling and will never be able to process the discovery that their bling is cubic zirconia.

actual comment:  social perception in the world outside the echo chamber.


I would suggest "Most people" is a very wide brush to paint people with.

 

I would also suggest that "social perception" is more accurately YOUR perception of what "social perception" is.

 

Finally, I would comment, yet again, that you are not addressing the subject of this thread.

 

Perhaps you’d like to start a thread to address your perceptions?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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09 April 2015 11:20
 

See new thread in the Status of Arms in the United States section, for want of a better place to put it.

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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Kathy McClurg
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09 April 2015 11:21
 

zebulon;103827 wrote:

Sorry, I haven’t followed this conversation from the start, so forgive me if this has already been addressed, but why wouldn’t it be a doctoral bonnet?


Because at Purdue they use Mortar boards.  This image shows the dean of one of the schools in front.  I have my brother’s picture in his academic regalia.  US universities often do their own thing regarding which headgear and color combinations.

 

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/purdueexponent.org/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/42/54254b4e-bb39-11e2-b671-001a4bcf6878/518fec075e0ec.image.jpg

 
Kathy McClurg
 
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09 April 2015 11:27
 

Joseph McMillan;103847 wrote:

See new thread in the Status of Arms in the United States section, for want of a better place to put it.


Thanks Joe.

 
Benjamin Thornton
 
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09 April 2015 11:48
 

Kathy McClurg;103848 wrote:

Because at Purdue they use Mortar boards.


I think Max has made a fair point in this regard. Most priests don’t wear galeri yet use them heraldically as a signifier of rank. Most knights (over the last few centuries) don’t wear helmets, yet use helms with open visors to denote rank - and there is no difference in helms used by KBs vs KCVOs vs KBEs, et cetera.

 

If - IF - one we’re to use doctoral bonnets or other signifiers of academic rank or accomplishment, the precedent would be to standardize them to make them more readily recognized. However, count me among those opposed to the use of academic headgear.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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09 April 2015 12:12
 

zebulon;103831 wrote:

Wagner was right; it seems you’ve just misinterpreted him to enforce self-legitimization.


Are you a psychoanalyst? If so, didn’t they tell you in med school not to offer analysis without examining the patient? If not, then keep your opinions about my motives to yourself.

 

If you can have a civilized discussion without the snarkiness, you’re welcome to express whatever views you want to. Not otherwise.


Quote:

Armorial bearings in the U.S. are not hereditary as they cannot form part of an inheritance.* "Hereditary" is a word with an actual definition, it’s not a poetic flourish.

Are blue eyes hereditary? (Yes.) Can they form part of an inheritance? (Not in the legal sense of the term.) Can a right to them be enforced? (Not in the state where I live; can it in yours?)

There are places where surnames are regulated by law and places where they aren’t. Yet even where the law is silent we still can say, where the custom is that one or the other of the parent’s surnames is customarily given to his or her children, that surnames in that society are hereditary. The same applies to coats of arms.


Quote:

Charles Boutelle said "heraldry means all the duties of a herald" which underscores the basic fact that the "heraldic world," as I’ve said and is commonly accepted outside the echo chamber of the heraldic enthusiasts, means those jurisdictions where there are heralds.

The Rev. Mr. Boutelle (who would fit neatly into your category of "heraldic enthusiasts) is hardly an authority to put on a plane with Wagner, but never mind. Yes, in one sense of the word, heraldry refers to what heralds do. But the term has been applied specifically to the processes and rules by which armorial devices are designed, described, and used since at least 1300, when a treatise entitled "De Heraudie" first laid down a set of rules of blazon. This was 100 years or more before any herald ever granted a coat of arms to anyone, let alone tried to control the use of heraldic arms or prescribe who could or couldn’t use them.


Quote:

Sure, you can self-declare you’ve passed your arms to your son, just like you can self-declare you’ve passed ownership of the Moon to your son. There is no way your son can enforce ownership of either the Moon or your arms. Ergo, they’re not inheritable.

Your son also can’t legally enforce the exclusive ownership of his surname. So?


Quote:

Saying you’ve matriculated arms in the U.S….

No one says that. No one who knows what he’s talking about refers to matriculating arms at all except in Scotland. But then, to know that, one would have to study heraldry just a wee, little bit, and that, as you have told us over and over again, is a silly, trivial pastime of interest only to fantasists. I would never venture to guess why, then, you are wasting your time on the subject, although it’s hard to resist wondering.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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09 April 2015 18:34
 

Unfortunately, no one else with moderation privileges seems to be monitoring the forums at the moment and I don’t think it would be appropriate to take an irreversible action on a thread in a debate in which I’m an active participant.

I’m going to hide all the posts in this thread that have nothing to do with the subject of alternative heraldic headgear.

 

I will report all the posts to the forum moderators to determine whether the tone of the discourse is appropriate to the forum.  The substantive aspect of the issues raised by Max Freitag is appropriate fodder for discussion, and ordinarily I would simply move all the posts regarding them to another thread.  But they don’t fit well into a single subject, and in any case the insulting tone in several posts strikes me as worth consideration by others who don’t have a dog in the fight.

 

If the moderators decide the posts should be restored and/or moved elsewhere in the forum, that is easily done.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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09 April 2015 20:44
 

Joe - thanks!  Even the sweetest smelling roses occasionally need pruning.

Sticking to headgear - IMO it’s one thing to preserve and consistently use historical headgear with an established meaning; but quite a different thing as an innovation to pick some one example used by some but not all institutions and impose that one example across the board, contrary to long-established contrary practices at many other similar institutions.  If the long-standing practice at Purdue (one of our oldest and most prestigious schools)  is mortarboards, a Purdue grad displaying a bonnet seems both unwarranted and pretentious.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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09 April 2015 21:38
 

Michael F. McCartney;103881 wrote:

Joe - thanks! Even the sweetest smelling roses occasionally need pruning.

Sticking to headgear - IMO it’s one thing to preserve and consistently use historical headgear with an established meaning; but quite a different thing as an innovation to pick some one example used by some but not all institutions and impose that one example across the board, contrary to long-established contrary practices at many other similar institutions. If the long-standing practice at Purdue (one of our oldest and most prestigious schools) is mortarboards, a Purdue grad displaying a bonnet seems both unwarranted and pretentious.


I’m sympathetic to this position in principle, but would it also be unwarranted and pretentious for a doctor from an institution where bonnets are worn to use a mortarboard instead?  Neither one intrinsically outranks the other, so is there a reason not to leave this to personal preference, like the choice between a barrel helm and a tilting helm or closed armet?

 

That said, I would rather not see this practice take hold.  Not because a university degree is presumed in one who uses arms, but because receipt of a doctorate does not constitute a fundamental change in a person’s "state" within society the way that clerical ordination traditionally does.  If doctoral caps are heraldically acceptable, then why not military officer’s caps, police officers’ caps, firemen’s helmets, lawyers’ coifs, and so on?

 

That said, I very vaguely recall that some country or other…Spain, perhaps?...does have a tradition of displaying doctoral caps with arms.  Does this ring a bell with anyone?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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09 April 2015 23:40
 

Generally ditto Joe.  I didn’t intend to endorse the notion of academic headgear (at least outside of an academic context - rather like our recommended "best practices" re: gongs/insignia of private organizations); only that if one does, it should reflect the specific useage of the university that awarded the degree.  (Tho’ FWIW the bonnet in the Bolton arms emblazoned earlier is really nice!)

I suspect (= I think that I think) that doodads reflecting heraldically non-traditional honors might better be displayed adjacent to but apart from the arms, e.g. around the border of a bookplate or library painting.  There is ample historical and current precedent for this approach; and what could be a more appropriate context for academic honors!

 
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09 April 2015 23:57
 

I’m one of the Moderators of this Forum and I’m not a participant in this thread. I’ve reviewed all the posts Joe McMillan deleted and agree with his judgement: they were either getting off topic or too rudely phrased to be allowed to remain.

There is now a thread on "social Criteria for Assumed Arms" in the Status of Arms in the United States section. This thread is about alternative headgear and the introduction of the same.

 

Please stay on topic. Please remain civil and avoid ad hominem attacks, even those merely implied by general tone.