The following was posted in the IAAH forum by Arthur Radburn. An interesting development. I will add this to our "Foreign Arms Registration" page.
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Some heraldic developments in France : the Conseil National d’Heraldique (CNH), has recently been authorised to register/record the arms of natural and juristic persons. They previously dealt only with official and municipal heraldry.
Their application forms contains the terms and conditions. It appears (according to Google Translate) that :
* registration simply places the arms on record
* they will be recorded only if the CNH considers that they comply with heraldic usages;
* third party rights are expressly reserved, and in the event of a dispute about ownership or "anteriority", the parties must sort it out in a civil court;
* the arms will be published in print and digitally;
* the date of the CNH’s decision does not give rise to recognition of prior ownership, possession or any rights whatsoever.
Their website is :
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Interesting! Two immediate questions:
* is this a governmental body? (sorta looks that way, but my French isn’t nearly adequate to sort that out)
* the fifth point is puzzling - I can see why any claim by the applicant of earlier useage (prior to submission to this agency) would need to be independently proven if later disputed; but the date of the applicant’s submission would seem to be clear evidence of use as of that date, as against a competing claim with only evidence of use beginning at a later date. (Or am I misreading Joe’s message?)
There are undoubtedly more questions re: the legal consequences of registration etc. but I’ll stick to these two for now.
Michael F. McCartney;104757 wrote:
Interesting! Two immediate questions:
* is this a governmental body? (sorta looks that way, but my French isn’t nearly adequate to sort that out)
Yes. The Commission Nationale d’Heraldique operates under the auspices of the Ministry of Culture and Communications. Up till this decision, its responsibility was only for official and civic heraldry.
Quote:
* the fifth point is puzzling - I can see why any claim by the applicant of earlier useage (prior to submission to this agency) would need to be independently proven if later disputed; but the date of the applicant’s submission would seem to be clear evidence of use as of that date, as against a competing claim with only evidence of use beginning at a later date. (Or am I misreading Joe’s message?)
Not my message but Arthur’s. I’ve looked at the commission’s guidelines on registration, and what it says is that "La date de l’avis de la CNH n’engendre aucune reconnaissance de propriété antérieure, de possession ou de quelque droit que ce soit." I have a feeling there’s some legalese built in there that I’d rather not venture to interpret.
Thanks! Will be interesting to follow this French approach over time.
One additional question that some may have, especially those non-French folks with French historical roots, is whether the new process is limited to French citizens (Canadian model); or to EU citizens; or open to citizens of the French equivalent to the British Commonwealth (similar to English COA or Lyon); or to those of documented French descent (similar to English honourary arms); or open to anyone anywhere (South African model); or some other eligibility criteria.
No personal interest, just academic curiousity.
Quote:
"La date de l’avis de la CNH n’engendre aucune reconnaissance de propriété antérieure, de possession ou de quelque droit que ce soit."
It seems that the caveat in question means that the Council, on recording the arms under certain date, is not responsible if the armiger was not actually entitled to these arms prior to the recording, and that therefore the date marks the fact of use but not necessarily of a rightful use. Close to the no.1 but, given the perspective of a dispute in a court, not totally identical.