Augmentations in American Arms

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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17 April 2016 02:44
 

Belated response to David’s post #61 - I don’t believe any of the Scottish Arms you posted include an augmentation granted by their sovereign.

The hearts in the Douglas and Lockhart arms, IIRC commemorate ancestors who escorted the heart of the deceased King Robert (the Bruce) on Crusade to Spain; but AFAIK the families just added the heart to commemorate that bit of family history.

 

The white Canton with the blue lion on the Bruce arms, again IIRC, represent an earlier coat of arms used by their ancestors in England before they moved to Scotland; not a royal Scottish augmentation.

 

If my recall is wrong, I’m sure others will gleefully disabuse me!

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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17 April 2016 02:48
 

Belated response to David’s post #61 - I don’t believe any of the Scottish Arms you posted include an augmentation granted by their sovereign.

The hearts in the Douglas and Lockhart arms, IIRC commemorate ancestors who escorted the heart of the deceased King Robert (the Bruce) on Crusade to Spain; but AFAIK the families just added the heart to commemorate that bit of family history.  In the Lockhart arms, the heart within the lock and chain is also canting.

 

The white Canton with the blue lion on the Bruce arms, again IIRC, represent an earlier coat of arms used by their ancestors in England before they moved to Scotland; not a royal Scottish augmentation.

 

The usual Scottish augmentation was the Royal double tressure, though in some cases it was more of an indicator of some Royal connection by marriage or descent in a female line which didn’t warrant quartering (no heraldic heiress).  I’m not aware of any grant of the double tressure for either reason after the Union, though older instances are still matriculated.

 

If my recall is wrong, I’m sure others will gleefully disabuse me!

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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18 April 2016 11:49
 

snelson;105898 wrote:

Hi Luis.  I’m not sure if this is entirely correct.  If a baronet has five sons at the time of his death, I believe that only the eldest son will become a baronet upon his father’s death (and begin to use the appropriate augmentation/canton).  However, it is my understanding that if a Swedish count has five sons, each son is a count immediately upon birth, and the sons use the augmentations/quarterings of their father (along with the appropriate coronet, supporters, barred helms and crests) simultaneously during their father’s lifetime.  Furthermore, I think that all of first count’s agnatic grandsons are also counts upon birth, and so forth down the generations.  Hopefully some of our Scandinavian friends can clarify this…


So Seb, does this mean that the number of Swedish noble titles holders can keep growing?  If so there could conceivably be dozens of individuals holding the same title of Baron/Count of such-and-such at the same time.  Is there any distinction made between them for the chief of the name and arms, etc..?

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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18 April 2016 21:17
 

Luis Cid;105907 wrote:

So Seb, does this mean that the number of Swedish noble titles holders can keep growing?  If so there could conceivably be dozens of individuals holding the same title of Baron/Count of such-and-such at the same time.  Is there any distinction made between them for the chief of the name and arms, etc..?

Hi Luis.  Yes I believe this is the case for counts and barons created before 1809.  I think in that year the Swedish government altered the practice.  The titles of counts and barons created after 1809 only descend along the senior male line.  I think the bulk of Swedish counts and barons were created before 1809, however, and the titles descend to all legitimate agnatic descendants.

 
Luis Cid
 
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Luis Cid
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19 April 2016 12:11
 

Thanks Seb.  Very interesting.  I seems then that the coats of arms granted with titles created before 1809 in Sweden, wether entirely new or with augmentations indicating a noble title, would not be considered within best practices here in the U.S. (though they are allowable within limited parameters of use in good taste).

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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19 April 2016 21:51
 

Not so sure we need to be that strict.  (Can’t believe I’m saying that! wink )

Making a couple of assumptions (logical, not armorial) - first, that the mere bearing of quartered arms, regardless of the content of the quarters, is not exclusively restricted in Swedish heraldry to nobles - that is, that there are commoners in Sweden who do, or could if desired, bear quartered arms; and second, that the specific charges in some or all of the quarters are not specified symbols of noble status, which a commoner could not use in his own non-noble arms.

 

Are these assumptions valid?  If so, then I don’t see a bar to use of the enhanced arms, minus of course any supporters and Noble helmets and coronets.