"Simplified"

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
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Daniel C. Boyer
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18 May 2016 22:00
 

Among the several unhelpfully confusing and ambiguous terms that sometimes crop up in the blazons of The Institute of Heraldry is "simplified," as, e.g. the blazon on the coat of arms of the 961 Engineer Battalion: "Gules, accosting and issuing from a pale Argent bearing in fess a New Guinea stone club of the field two simplified Philippine demi-suns of the second".  We can understand "simplified" in a very vague, general and abstract way, but how is the artist supposed to approach this?  Is it fair enough for the artist to simplify any old way so long as he had "simplified"?  Is it not better to specify precisely what form the simplification should take?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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19 May 2016 04:27
 

I would agree - "simplified" is suggestive but vague.

In the particular context of TIOH it doesn’t much matter - they will also craft a very precise drawing of the arms for manufacturing purposes, no artistic license permitted! -  so that the metal and enamel badges for each unit will be uniform in size, shape and appearance.  Creative artistry is limited to the original TIOH "grant" and drawing.

 

IMO (not that they asked me! wink ) there should be room for artistic differences, not in the metal badges but in artwork for display in the unit’s buildings.  And that would require (or at least deserves) a more precise blazon.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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19 May 2016 16:00
 

Are we to believe that the Philippines sun is "complicated"?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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19 May 2016 20:39
 

Apparently the TIOH version is somehow "simpler" than , say, the version on the Phillipine flag.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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19 May 2016 23:30
 

On the official Philippine sun, each of the eight principal rays consists of one thick ray flanked by two narrower rays.

https://flagspot.net/images/p/ph.gif.  Some representations also show it with a face on the disk.

On the arms of the 961st Engineers, these details are omitted.

http://www.armedforcesinsignia.com/data/shopcart7/image_db/DUI-0961A_W.png

 

So the question for those who don’t like the TIOH blazon is, "how would you blazon it?"

 
StarScepter
 
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StarScepter
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20 May 2016 03:48
 

LOL, it looks more like "a gear argent"!

 
QuiQuog
 
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QuiQuog
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20 May 2016 11:52
 

Are they distinguishing white and argent as separate colors? It looks like they may use a system that’s incompatible with what we’re used to.

As to how to blazon it, since they’re obviously wanting to copy the sun as it is on the Philippine flag, how about take a queue from how the Philippines themselves blazon it on their COA, and say "the sun rayonnant of eight rays"

 

The point, as well as the blazon, may be moot though if there’s no artistic license. If they only make more based on the design of the previous, then the only reason that they would go to the blazon is if every example in every form were completely lost. At that point, people will be better off directing their efforts to fighting the invading alien horde than recreating the patch of an extinct engineering Bn.

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
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Daniel C. Boyer
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20 May 2016 12:18
 

Michael F. McCartney;106000 wrote:

I would agree - "simplified" is suggestive but vague.

In the particular context of TIOH it doesn’t much matter - they will also craft a very precise drawing of the arms for manufacturing purposes, no artistic license permitted! -  so that the metal and enamel badges for each unit will be uniform in size, shape and appearance.  Creative artistry is limited to the original TIOH "grant" and drawing.

 

IMO (not that they asked me! wink ) there should be room for artistic differences, not in the metal badges but in artwork for display in the unit’s buildings.  And that would require (or at least deserves) a more precise blazon.


The unheraldic "context" of TIOH, while comprehensible to a certain degree, hardly closes the matter. Not only is there the issue of the TIOH’s integrity, self-respect and competence within its own context, but there is also the possibility of heraldic artists outside the military working, as of course they will, purely from blazon. As I have suggested elsewhere, shield painters representing these arms as they actually are should prove not only interesting in terms of artistic creativity, but instructive, with, inter alia, the many glaring errors of the Institute revealed. It is high time that such a project began.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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20 May 2016 12:20
 

QuiQuog;106010 wrote:

Are they distinguishing white and argent as separate colors?


I don’t think so.  This is a picture of a metal unit insignia, and the production method often results in large spaces being enameled and smaller ones left in the plain metal finish.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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20 May 2016 12:22
 

Daniel C. Boyer;106011 wrote:

As I have suggested elsewhere, shield painters representing these arms as they actually are should prove not only interesting in terms of artistic creativity, but instructive, with, inter alia, the many glaring errors of the Institute revealed. It is high time that such a project began.


If that’s how you feel, then what’s stopping you?

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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21 May 2016 13:40
 

In fairness to TIOH, their precise technical drawings and specifications, which accimpany each "grant" of arms or badges (Distinctive Unit Insignia) are the functional equivalent of the English College of Arms "as shewn more clearly in the margin" - which sometimes are the only practical way to understand the blazon where the traditional written blazon doesn’t quite do the trick.

IMO not ideal, either with the English COA or the American TIOH, but still a functionally workable work-around.  And for TIOH, a necessary practice, even when there is no heraldic ambiguity in a given case (many of their designs are simple and straightforward) given the military necessity for uniformity in the production of the metal badges and embroidered patches which are it’s primary function and justification for being.

 

But still sometimes frustrating from our point of view!