hollywood1765;97046 wrote:
That’s what I had hoped. So you can "turn" the crest any where within 90 degrees and still be "correct"
I’d say that a helm and its crest are generally shown either in profile or face-on. I’m given to understand that paper heraldy at one time assigned meaning to the two possitions (peers and whatnot were face-on while we peons had to settle for the side-view). This isn’t the casecanymore, and the helm and its crest can have either of the two positions, as long as they pair each other.
Once Again I want to thank you all for you help and input!!!!!!!!!!!
You all have been so very helpful and I truly am humbled by your knowledge and willingness to help!!!
steven harris;97050 wrote:
I’d say that a helm and its crest are generally shown either in profile or face-on. I’m given to understand that paper heraldy at one time assigned meaning to the two possitions (peers and whatnot were face-on while we peons had to settle for the side-view). This isn’t the casecanymore, and the helm and its crest can have either of the two positions, as long as they pair each other.
Helms may also be shown in 3/4 perspective and often are. See Marie Lynskey’s emblazonment of my arms in the AHS members’ roll.
Ditto Joe’s comment.
In effect, that’s three positions - affrontee, profile and half-way between. In the bad old days of paper heraldry, the blazon would explicitly (or implicitly - e.g. "on a helm befitting his degree") specify the position of the helm, and also specify the position of the crest—sometimes these would artistically conflict, but still be blazoned & shown that way. Nowadays the practice seems to be to leave the position of the helm to the artist’s discretion (i.e. not pinned down in the blazon), with the crest aligned to the helm; though you will still see carryovers from the older practice.
Re paper heraldry: in some countries, the 3/4 (or 45 degree) placement was designated for particular social ranks, but in British-Irish practice it was often a way of getting around the awkwardness of a mismatched crest and helm. Let’s say someone’s crest was a stag’s head caboshed (affronty without the neck) but the particular someone was not a knight and therefore not entitled to an affronty helm. The artist would draw the helm sufficiently in profile to pass muster with the College of Arms, but not so much that the deer would look like it was staring off over the helmet-wearer’s left ear.
In my case, my crest looks natural on a helm in profile, and I was and am puzzled by Miss Lynskey’s choice of a 3/4 orientation for the helm, but it is what it is.
Looking at Joe’s page in our on-line roll, & Ms. L’s depiction of Joe’s helm in the 3/4 (45 degree) orientation vs. Joe’s own artwork(the second one, with the flowery mantling similar to Ms. L’s but with the helm in profile): my guess is that Ms. L chose the 3/4 version as the visual better "fit" of helm & mantling, with the crest in profile being just a little off but still close enough to look OK;
while Joe (consciously or not) made the opposite choice, i.e. helm & crest both in profile, with the flowery mantling just a little bit off but still close enough to look OK.
A third option would have been to show all three elements in 3/4 view—i.e. to attempt to show the crested helm as it would have looked in 3-D turned to the 3/4 position— though in a necessarily 2-D rendition, it might have been a bit more difficult to draw Joe’s crest convincingly in the 3/4 orientation.
Which I suppose is one example of the merits, or indeed the necessity, of allowing for artistic variations & license.
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