Hello all. The conversation about the arms of Kathy’s nieces; especially the tinctures of the quill-pens and how they would not be distinct if the arms were not drawn in color, got me thinking about how things can change when a trick of arms is put in color. I decided to put this thread here, as I just wanted to bring attention to yet another heraldic curiosity, specifically in the arms of Thomas Weaver of 16th century New York. With Ton’s help (Thank you!) some other Weaver blazons were found and they seem to run in the same logic train as those of Thomas. Also with his help, we have come up with a way to emblazon this and have it be accurate. So this is more of a point of interest and an illustration of how horribly wrong things can get.
Now the canton is clearly visible in the trick, it would "disappear" if colored. So, on Ton’s advice I’ve extended the canton so it overlaps the first Argent bar a bit, in an effort to delineate the canton again.
I guess the only question I would have then, would it be permissible to put a very thin line of Argent around the canton to establish that it is actually there?
Thanks again, and I hope you enjoyed this (rather long) walk through heraldic curiosity.
Regards,
Robert
It looks to me like the artist of the first blazon lowered the bars (shouldn’t they be centered on the field) on purpose so the canton did NOT cut into the upper bar. If you were drawing the first blazon, I would expect the lower part of the canton to be over the uppermost bar some.
I am not an artist - I could be incorrect (what a surprise!).
It seems that way Kathy. But one of the traits of a canton is that (unless specifically stated otherwise in the blazon—as this is very exceptional) it surmounts everything on the field, including bordures.:D It’s all useful as it helps me emblazon something that is a bit confusing.
Regards,
Robert
A canton sable on a sable field makes no sense to me.
I wonder if Greenwood just mis-blazoned what he saw.
Why not Sable, two bars and a garb in dexter chief argent ?
/Charles
The blazon in Matthews is obviously wrong.
Sable two bars Argent, on a canton of the last a garb of the second
means Sable two bars Argent, on a canton Argent (the last named tincture) a garb Argent (the second named tincture).
That would behttp://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c317/Talksinsentences/Weaver-perMattews.jpg
Greenwood’s
Sable, two bars argent; on a canton of the first a garb of the second
presumably is the correct blazon, but I would depict it as
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c317/Talksinsentences/Weaver-perGreenwood.jpg
Of the two BGA entries, I would suggest that the third
Barry of four Argent and Sable on a chief of the last a garb Or
would be depicted as http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c317/Talksinsentences/Weaver-perBGA3.jpg because the position of the garb is not specified and therefore I would by default put it in centre chief.
and the fourth
Barry of four Argent and Sable on a canton of the last a garb Or
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c317/Talksinsentences/Weaver-perBGA4-1.jpg
James
Like Charles, I don’t see the point of having a canton Sable on a field of the same. If I were emblazoning the first Weaver blazon, I would have the canton surmounting at least part of the uppermost bar.
I agree all around. It is silly to put a canton, or a chief of a color over the same color. I can see the "evolution" of similar arms as it were. There were several mistakes in this blazon, and in others or the same ilk. It appears there might have been generations after trying to correct the #1 "Barry of 4" Weavers. (The one with the chief Sable.)
It was fine for a time with the Weaver #2 "Barry of 4". (Like James depicted.) The Argent bar is revealed again, and can be seen.
Thomas Weaver came along and messed it up again. :D
The Chief takes up around 1/3 the height of the field, but not less then 1/4 or it would be a "bar". So since the first "Bar in the Barry" is Argent, it would be covered completely by the Chief Sable. What were these guys thinking? :confused: Maybe they just never colored it?? In a trick it appears to still have 4 visible "stripes"...
Perhaps this discussion has been based on a mis-type - Perhaps it was intended for the "garb" to be "in canton" which would put it in the dexter chief position and also specify something about the size of the garb. If I recall correctly, a canton should be about a third of the length of the shield. I think the bars in Thomas Weaver’s arms are a bit narrow.
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