More than a banner?

 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
 
Avatar
 
 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
Total Posts:  789
Joined  20-06-2008
 
 
 
22 June 2011 22:03
 

Our present guidelines posted on the main website mention only the use of a "basic banner of arms."

Is there any other precedence of flags used by Americans that incorporate the badge? Preferably something that uses ONLY the badge, unlike the standard (described here: http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/flyingherald2.html)

 

Also, does an American armiger have any real use for a standard?

 

Lastly, overall, can we expand here in this thread on the guidelines for the use of various flags for American armigers?

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
Avatar
 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
Total Posts:  2518
Joined  04-06-2007
 
 
 
22 June 2011 22:15
 

A standard, as I understand it, is typically flown at a headquarters as a rallying point for one’s followers, so in that regard probably not much use for an American armiger. A badge banner is similar to a banner of arms in that it is a rectangular flag with one’s badge on it, typically fringed in the livery colors. The background color can be solid or divided (per pale?) of the liveries.

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
22 June 2011 22:38
 

I think para 4.6.1 says everything that needs to be said.  An American with a coat of arms can use it on whatever kind of flag he (or she) pleases, and for whatever purpose.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
Avatar
 
 
Alexander Liptak
Total Posts:  846
Joined  06-06-2008
 
 
 
23 June 2011 01:15
 

It is not necessary to keep to the pattern of a standard, guidon, pennon or pinsel; simply make a flag in your own shape and design that works best for you.

How about something similar to the Oriflamme pattern, but horizontal rather than vertical. Use a a small square hoist with the badge upon it, and let the three tapering tails fly without any markings to show the livery colours.

 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
 
Avatar
 
 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
Total Posts:  789
Joined  20-06-2008
 
 
 
23 June 2011 07:22
 

Joseph McMillan;85186 wrote:

I think para 4.6.1 says everything that needs to be said.  An American with a coat of arms can use it on whatever kind of flag he (or she) pleases, and for whatever purpose.


I know this is true in regards to our arms, and I understand the possibilities are boundless as an American - I was just wondering if there was a historical example of American heraldic badges being used in flags.

 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
 
Avatar
 
 
Jeremy Keith Hammond
Total Posts:  789
Joined  20-06-2008
 
 
 
23 June 2011 07:26
 

xanderliptak;85192 wrote:

How about something similar to the Oriflamme pattern, but horizontal rather than vertical. Use a a small square hoist with the badge upon it, and let the three tapering tails fly without any markings to show the livery colours.


That does sound attractive, and I may employ that if I chose to create a flag of my own.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
23 June 2011 09:57
 

Jeremy Corbally-Hammond;85194 wrote:

I know this is true in regards to our arms, and I understand the possibilities are boundless as an American - I was just wondering if there was a historical example of American heraldic badges being used in flags.


That depends on what you mean by historical. There’s no history that I have found of personal heraldic flag usage in the United States at all until quite recently.

 

As to badges, other than royal badges they were pretty much obsolete in England by the time the first English settlements were established in the New World, victims of the Tudor statutes against the great noble magnates maintaining private followings of henchmen (known as the acts against livery and maintenance). From the early 1500s until Charles Boutell advocated their revival in the late 1800s it doesn’t seem to have occurred to anyone that badges were of anything other than antiquarian interest. This is from the 1867 edition of Boutell’s English Heraldry:


Quote:

The Badges of our early Heraldry are comparatively but little understood. They invite the particular attention of students, both from their own special interest, and the light they are qualified to throw upon the personal history of the English people, and also from their peculiar applicability for use by ourselves at the present day. Indeed, at this time when the revival of true Heraldry is in the act of being accomplished with complete success, it appears to be peculiarly desirable that Badges should be brought into general use. It is not enough for us to revive our old English Heraldry as once in the olden time it flourished in England, and to rest content with such a revival: but we must go on to adapt our revived Heraldry, in its own spirit and in full sympathy with its genuine feeling, to conditions of our age and of the state of things now in existence. And very much may be done to effect this by the adoption of Badges, as our favourite and most expressive heraldic insignia, both in connection with Coat Armour and for independent display. Unlike Crests, which must necessarily be associated with helms and the wearers of helms, and consequently have both a military and a mediaeval character, Badges are equally appropriate for use by Ladies, as well as by men of every profession, and they belong alike to every age and period.


I’ve never run across any evidence that badges were ever in use in the present-day United States, on flags or otherwise, until long after the College of Arms "revived" the granting of badges in England during the tenure of Sir Alfred Scott-Gatty as Garter King of Arms (1904-1910). Like their English and Scottish counterparts, American armigers who were prosperous enough to have uniformed servants simply used their crests on the footmen’s buttons—the practice Boutell was decrying when he called for the revival of badges.

 
David Pritchard
 
Avatar
 
 
David Pritchard
Total Posts:  2058
Joined  26-01-2007
 
 
 
23 June 2011 13:35
 

The granting of a badge-banner is quite rare in modern heraldry. Usually the recipient is an ardent student of heraldry. The late Robert Gayre was the first grantee (recording) of a badge-banner by the Chief Herald of Ireland since Mediaeval or Tudor times. I was the first registrant of a badge-banner by the Bureau of Heraldry and I believe that Stephen Slater is the first or one of the first grantees of a badge-banner by the College of Arms in modern times. I am inclined to think that the Court of the Lord Lyon may not as of yet granted a square or rectangular badge-banner as the flag would not fit well into the current system (replacing not a single flag in the Scottish vexillological hierarchy but a number of them).

 
liongam
 
Avatar
 
 
liongam
Total Posts:  343
Joined  19-02-2006
 
 
 
24 June 2011 05:15
 

To my certain knowledge the only heraldic flag/ensign The College of Arms grants or more correctly exemplifies within Letters Patent granting armorial bearings de novo which includes a badges or badges or Letters Patent granting a badge or badges to existing armigers alone is the Standard.  No other heraldic flag/ensign is available, unlike those from Lyon Court.  All grantees of grants that emanate from the College may use a banner of their arms automatically.  Therefore, the ‘badge banner’ as used by Stephen Slater as painted by John Ferguson is purely an heraldic conceit, albeit a very decorative one and one that harks to early heraldry.

John

 
ninest123
 
Avatar
 
 
ninest123
Total Posts:  1703
Joined  29-06-2017
 
 
 
09 October 2018 23:23
 

cc20181010
birkenstocks
hermes birkin
timberland boots
pandora charms
ugg australia
coach factorty outlet
burberry outlet canada
coach factory outlet
pandora outlet
supra shoes
kate spade outlet
fitflops sale clearance
pandora jewelry official site
moncler outlet
gucci outlet
canada goose outlet
swarovski crystal
hermes handbags
pandora charms
coach outlet online
kate spade handbags
pandora charms sale clearance
fitflops
yeezy boost
oakley sunglasses outlet
air max 90
supreme new york
nike air max shoes
kate spade bags
air jordan shoes
ray ban sunglasses
kate spade bags
michael kors outlet clearance
new york mets jerseys
pandora charms
air max 2017
nike dunks
canada goose
cleveland indians jerseys
dr martens
coach outlet
kevin durant shoes
coach outlet
coach outlet
michael kors outlet clearance
michael kors outlet
hermes handbags
canada goose outlet
asics outlet
kate spade outlet
oakland athletics jerseys
ray ban sunglasses
gucci outlet
canada goose jackets
uggs outlet store
pandora outlet
coach canada
coach outlet online
pandora jewelry
ultra boost
canada goose outlet
canada goose sale
kansas city royals jerseys
coach outlet
toms outlet
nike cortez
uggs outlet
swarovski outlet
lacoste polo shirts
michael kors outlet online
nike air max 1
dr martens boots
canada goose
new balance shoes
coach outlet online
uggs outlet
columbia sportswear
air jordan shoes
michael kors outlet
pandora charms sale
adidas shoes
polo outlet
ralph lauren
kate spade handbags
mlb jerseys
cc20181010
cfcfd