King of Griffony

 
ESmith
 
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ESmith
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01 March 2007 02:07
 

Guy Power wrote:

I just Googled the blazon and found a match:

—Guy


The blazon isn’t what fascinates me all that much, it is more the holder, the King of Griffony…  I like to think of myself as a bit of an amateur writer (the whole, I want to be a paperback writer, kinda thing) and several of my stories are set in a place called Gryphony (incidentally I thought of Gules, a griffin Or as an arms for my fictional setting).  I thought I had coined the word and seeing that I did not makes me curious… setting a story in a real place is often preferable… I know, I’m a dork. :wookie:

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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01 March 2007 03:03
 

ESmith wrote:

The blazon isn’t what fascinates me all that much, it is more the holder, the King of Griffony…  I like to think of myself as a bit of an amateur writer (the whole, I want to be a paperback writer, kinda thing) and several of my stories are set in a place called Gryphony (incidentally I thought of Gules, a griffin Or as an arms for my fictional setting).  I thought I had coined the word and seeing that I did not makes me curious… setting a story in a real place is often preferable… I know, I’m a dork. :wookie:


I have a feeling that there was another place of this name that was in eastern Belgium or southeastern Netherlands. By the way, I have known many dorks over the years and you sir are no dork, though the wookie could be taken the wrong way!  wink

 
MohamedHossam
 
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MohamedHossam
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01 March 2007 12:23
 

Quote:

Originally posted by Denny: I wonder what our Orthodox brothers see…I wonder if it is the same as us RCs?


If I recall correctly, I saw the Crown of Thorns used by the Orthodox in Egypt (Coptic Orthodox) and, If I remember correctly, but I am not as sure, also in the Orthodox churches in Syria, Jordan, and Palestine.

 

I have even seen examples sold of the Crown of Thorns, labeled as being made of thorns from the Holy Land, besides other replicas.

 

Regards,

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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01 March 2007 13:52
 

David Pritchard wrote:

I have been in dozens of Orthodox Churches and I cannot say that they use these type of symbols the way that the Roman Catholics use them. May be such symbols are not so important when the inside of an Orthodox Church is covered with dozens if not a hundred icons or more. How useful can mere depictions of the Instruments of the Passion be when one has sacred iconographic depictions of the Passion in every church?


The Orthodox tend not to place the same heavy emphasis on Christ’s physical suffering on the Cross as is found in Latin Rite Catholicism.  The dominant image of Jesus in an Orthodox church is more often the risen Christ as the Pantocrator rather than the suffering Christ on the cross,  and even Byzantine icons of the crucifixion tend to show a more serene, stoic figure than the Christ in agony of the post-medieval West.  This difference in emphasis may account for the absence of images of the instruments of the Passion from Eastern churches.  (Keep in mind that the whole ritual emphasis on the physical aspects of the Passion was largely developed by the Franciscans, well after the Great Schism.)

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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01 March 2007 14:14
 

Quote:

May be such symbols are not so important when the inside of an Orthodox Church is covered with dozens if not a hundred icons or more. How useful can mere depictions of the Instruments of the Passion be when one has sacred iconographic depictions of the Passion in every church?


Well, I’m confused. Inside of a real Catholic parish one will find many sacred icons, some paintings and some statues. So, because they have beautiful icons as a reason for not having any Passion symbols for this reason doesn’t make sense to me.

 

Also Inside of a Catholic parish will be sacred icons of the passion, either painted, or carved, or both along the walls. So, we have depictions of the Passion as well and yet we also have a general use of such symbols alongside of it and therefore I’m not sure how have sacred images of the Passion in the church precludes their adoration otherwise.

 

But, I am not an Orthodox, so that is probably why I can’t understand it – cultural differences within the Faith I guess. smile

 

I will say that what Joe says does make some sense in that St. Francis and his brothers thereafter did/do have a great devotion to Our Lord’s Passion. So, maybe this is a reason.

 

Also, it might be simply an issue of non-observance by the Byzantines and not all Orthodox, as Mohamed said he’s seen our Egyptian Orthodox brothers using such symbolism of sorts. I know that at the Maronite parish I attend once a month for Divine Liturgy/Mass that it is really evident that they do observe a number of "Roman" rituals including the Stations, which is actually a prayerful meditation on the Passion itself.

 

Now back to heraldry and this together…I did some looking last night on Google and did not find much on Prester John in addition to the Instruments of the Passion in heraldry. Mostly I seen the "Blackamoor" head relating to Prester John in a number of places, including in the arms of the current pope, as used by his previous See. I will have to look through my Heraldic Imagination by Mr. Dennys to see of that’s where I read a bit on the attributed arms of Prester John.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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01 March 2007 15:04
 

Donnchadh wrote:

Mostly I seen the "Blackamoor" head relating to Prester John in a number of places, including in the arms of the current pope, as used by his previous See.


There are several explanations for how a Moor’s head found its way into the arms of the Bishopric of Freising (now translated by those usurpers up the river and renamed the Archbishopric of Munich and Freising, the scoundrels*), but as far as I’ve ever read, that it represents Prester John is not one of them.

 

The common local belief is that it is St. Corbinian, the founder of the see (and tamer of the bear found in the sinister field of the Pope’s arms, but as can be seen from this entry from the Flags of the World page on the flag of Freising County, by Marcus Schmöger, nothing is ever that simple:


Quote:

Actually we do not know, we can only speculate; and there are many speculations on that topic, for sure! The first seal depicting a crowned head dates from 1286: it shows the whole person of the bishop of Freising, Emicho, and in a small escutcheon at the bottom of the seal, a crowned head. This is the first pictorial evidence of the bishopric coat-of-arms; however, there is no indication, that this crowned head shows a moor. Also later seals include a crowned head, but not a moor.

The first image definitely showing a moor is an illumination from 1316 in the so-called Prädialbuch. So sometime between 1286 and 1316 the crowned head became a crowned moor’s head. Since then the crowned moor’s head is considered the arms of the bishop of Freising and of his territory, the Hochstift. The Hochstift contained widespread territories in Bavaria ... but also in Slovenia .... Many of the cities and municipalities formerly belonging to the Hochstift contain the moor’s head in their coat-of-arms….

The attempts for an interpretation include:
<ol class=“bbcode_list”>
<li>One of the three Magi (one of them is shown as a moor);</li>
<li>St. Mauritius (his name is derived from Latin maurus, moor);</li>
<li>St. Zeno (frequently shown as a moor);</li>
<li>St. Sigismund (mixed up with St. Mauritius);</li>
<li>St. Corbinian, the first bishop of Freising, pictures of whom (e.g. on coins) might have become darker over the time and so ended up resembling a moor;</li>
<li>several other explanations.</li>
</ol>
The more important thing in the early times of this coat-of-arms seems to be the crown, and not what the head signified. The crown should probably show that the territory of the bishop of Freising was autonomous, only subject to the Emperor, and not to the Bavarian duke.

 

 

Another explanation for the moor might be that bishop Emicho had thick lips and therefore perhaps was nicknamed moor. Some other possible explanations are proposed by Ziegler. In the end, we do not know, though.


As cited by Marcus, at least two full-length books have been published exploring this subject, one by the Ziegler cited in the text above.

 

_________

* I speak as a former (at ages 10-12) resident of the ancient episcopal city of Freising.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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01 March 2007 18:34
 

According to one book in my collection, Mauritius: Der heilige Mohr by Gude Suckale-Redlefsen, the Black Heads that appear in Germanic heraldry are Saint Maurice rather than Prester John.

Here is some information concerning the Brotherhood of the Black Heads in Medieval Estonia and Latvia: http://www.mustpeademaja.ee/eng/enkokkujutt.html

 

Part of the doorway of the House of the Brotherhood of the Black Heads in Tallinn depicting Saint Maurice:

 

http://www.tourism.tallinn.ee/static/files/093/t2_tv-231.jpg

 

The House of the Brotherhood of the Black Heads in Riga, click for larger image:

 

http://thumb17.webshots.net/t/64/164/3/45/4/533034504cvswmc_th.jpg

 
ninest123
 
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ninest123
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09 October 2018 23:23
 

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