George Lucki;58178 wrote:
...but this is getting us off-topic and I would like to see this get back to the heraldry of the Papal nobility.
This is on the topic insofar as it gets to the heart of the basis for which this heraldry exists. What I mean is that I do not think that the historic practice of creating Papal nobles and the hereditary heraldry that goes with their titles is a thing "of the past" so to speak merely by accident. In other words, you seem to be saying that because of the reasons you have quoted regarding the nature of the Pope’s authority that it is simply that the Pope(s) can create nobles but it just so happens that the more recent ones choose not to. I don’t think that’s really what is happening.
For example, the President of the Republic of Upper Slobonia is also a Head of State but does that mean he can automatically create nobles? That’s not a rhetorical question, I’m actually asking you in the hypothetical. In the United States the President is the Head of State and does, in fact, give awards and honors to people on his own initiative and under his own authority but he can’t simply decide to create nobles.
It sounds to me like you are equating the sovereign status of the Holy See and the Pope’s role as a Head of State with his being a fons honorum capable of granting secular noble titles and that this mixed religious/temporal role that he has is a divinely instituted authority. In the quote from Velde you put in your initial post it says that: "By the Lateran Accord of 1929, the Italian government recognized and confirmed the pope’s power to grant titles, and the titles were considered equivalent to Italian titles." So that sounds like he’s also talking of a recognition and confirmation of what would be seen as an ability which pre-existed the treaty of 1929.
I’m putting it to you that it isn’t merely a personal choice of the last four Popes not to create nobles. Rather, while the Pope’s function as a Head of State it is no longer considered appropriate for them (by them) to create as nobles those lay people who perform extraordinary service to the Church. I think it is that the Popes themselves are distinguishing between a practice that belonged to a time when they functioned as kings the same as temporal princes and the dual nature of the role that they have now as a Head of State because the government of the Catholic Church is the equivalent of a sovereign state.
This is why, heraldically speaking, one can speak only of an assumed augmentation to the shield itself or the addition of an assumed external ornament not specifically tied to a title or rank but simply to service to the Church by any layman (noble or otherwise). In addition, it os not possible to speak of lay papal heraldry in terms of the Pope entitling someone (in the literal sense of that word) to have arms and to ensign them with a mantle or coronet. In addition, it is this change in understanding of what being a Head of State is for the Pope vis-a-vis what it used to mean that has caused the Popes in recent years to do away with creating nobles because of the hereditary nature of both the title and any heraldic privilege claimed on account of it. Rather, the rewards given to deserving laity now are for their lifetimes only and not able to be inherited by their heirs.
This is more than just an accident. It is a conscious decision on the part of the Popes of recent years to stop confusing the things that belong properly to a secular Head of State with the things that go along with his being a Head of State because of purely religious reasons. If the papacy had never held the papal states or any lands at all and if bishops had not taken on the role of civil magiustrates after the Roman Empire became Christian we wouldn’t even be having this discussion because the government of the Catholic Church, like other religious bodies, wouldn’t be considered sovereign. The only reason that it developed historically into what it is today is because at one time Popes were princes. While the Pope is still a Head of State he is not a prince like the King of Spain, or the Queen of England. It is not necessary for the government of the Catholic Church to be sovereign but it makes operating in the world unfettered by any undue influence of a secular government easier. Nevertheless, God saw to it that the Pope had authority to run the Church. The fact that the Pope also became a Head of State along the way is an accident of history. This is why Popes aren’t creating hereditary noble titles anymore and involving themselves in matters of heraldry and the only "papal noble heraldry" that does exist even from that time in the past consists only of augmentations denoting a relationship to the Church or external insignia signifying a "job" performed for the Church not a nobiliary rank.
after some googling I found an interesting article about papal nobility, it is in Dutch (without pictures) but for the interested here is the link :
http://www.katholiek.org/pauselijkeadel.htm
this information can also be found in:
"Op zoek naar de pauselijke adel"
by G.N. Westerouen van Meeteren
in "De Nederlandsche Leeuw, CXVIII (2001) no 5-6, Kol. 467-490
(of which I own a copy but due to the fact that I am moving to our new house do not have acces to at the moment)
In the article there is a list of the noble titles that the popes granted the list is as follows :
Priceps (prince)
Dux (duke)
Marchio con auleo (marquess with baldachin) (1)
Marchio (marquess)
Comes Palatinus (palatine count) (2)
Comes (count)
Vicecomes (Viscount)
Baro (Baron)
(Civis) Nobilus patricius (1)
(Civis) Nobilus conscriptus (1)
(Civis) Nobilus
(1) These titles were reserved for Roman families, to which was usually added Romanus.
(2) complete : Comes Palatinus Sacri Palatii Lateranensis. Usually given as a personal title, abolished by Pope Pius IX in 1853.
it would be interesting to find out if there has been a Marchio con Auleo that actually put a baldachin in his arms.
Quote:
As I said, I’ve never had any objection to exploring the heraldic aspects of the papal nobility, my skepticism about the prospects for what I would consider useful insights notwithstanding.
- emphasis mine -
I wasn’t sure how to respond to this, or if I should at all for fear of being hit with a ‘not heraldry’ tag. However, at my brother-in-law’s graduation with a degree in respiratory therapy tonight in Aurora the keynote speaker was the Superintendent of Aurora Public Schools, Dr. Barry. He is a retired 2 star general who was a fighter pilot in the Air Force and was later in the Pentagon when the terrorists attacked on 9-11 – may God rest their souls. What struck me other than his rather clever humor, his mentioning of God 5 times in a college address for a public non-religious community college and concluding by saying may God bless you, and his stature – rather tall man for a cockpit I thought – was the comment he told the college graduates about being skeptical and not cynical.
Now I wasn’t sure where he was going with this, however it was like a light-bulb went off when he said it. ‘Be skeptical because healthy skepticism produces questions, which produces learning and true growth. Do not be cynical, which people often mistake for skeptical, because you will close off any questions and any possibilities for educational and personal growth because you do not think there is ever anything to gain by asking the questions and exploring the possibilities.’ roughly paraphrased.
For me this is the reason I ask so many questions including when it may seem obvious to others. It is also the reason I question rules, or social-rules, for allowing this or not allowing that etc. I’ve never meant it as a sign of disrespect at all, but have always learned by asking, asking and asking again lots of questions.
So, to bring it back to this thread and heraldry, for me this thread was and is all about papal nobility heraldry and if it exists. I’ve not seen 100% proofs – like others have asked for or require to believe there is a connection – but I have seen enough to make me think that despite a lack of official rules/codification or official grants of arms that there is some linkage here. I presume it to be cultural, however I think it may well extend beyond the borders of the formal Papal States. As such, I believe there may be, and perhaps is, a papal nobility heraldry.
I came to this thread asking questions and wanting to learn at the same time. I know some do not think in the affirmative about the thrust of this thread and that is OK. And sure enough I may be naive on some level(s). But, it is also equally possible that anyone here on this MB or participating on this thread may be too ‘certain’ of there being nothing while not being open to the possibility of there being anything. This for me seems like the sort of cynicism Dr. Barry was speaking of and not so much skepticism if it were being employed here. Which, I’m not saying Mr. McMillan, or anyone in particular, is being cynical about this topic, however I am certain it is a very real possibility for ever man-jack one (of course myself included) of us on any topic including this one. I wonder perhaps if one takes a step back from his opinion(s), affirmative or other, and looks anew at this thread using either Mr. Swanson’s questions, or the questions of James and then looks to George several examples and asking is it possible and is there 100% proof against it as well as for it what, if anything, may change in our perspective on this subject.
P.S. how sad is that to be at a college graduation and then think of this topic when this man says this…I must be spending too much time on heraldry these days. 
I was so happy yesterday when it appeared that this thread had died out after a very prolonged and agonizing debate. It seems that just like the dead monster in the horror movies, this topic revived only to slip back once more into oblivion or at least many of us so hope (no sequel please!).
REQUIESCAT IN PACE
Ton,
Thank you for the link. It appears that if I understood it correctly there are approximately 300 extant families with the grace of Papal nobility - of these 115 are in Italy and 90 in France -accounting for approximately 2/3 of the total.
There was an interesting glossa about the granting of arms to accompany grants of Papal nobility.
Quote:
Verlening
- De pauselijke adelsgunsten werden door de Paus verleend en vastgelegd in een breve (een in plechtige vorm op perkament geschreven akte). Voor het lichten (in ontvangst nemen) hiervan waren zegelrechten verschuldigd.
- In de meer recente pauselijke adelsdiploma’s komen geen wapenbeschrij- vingen voor. Wapenbrieven, waarin een (familie)wapen werd verleend, kon men desgewenst afzonderlijk aanvragen.
If I understood the gist of it - the brief (a formal parchment document) of nobility granted by the Pope specifies in each case the conditions and privileges. A "seal tax" is payable (such a payment is common in European grants of nobility). The text states that in more recent times Papal grants of nobility are made without an attached grant of arms. It indicates that a grant of family arms is obtainable on the basis of a separate petition.
If this is correct it would appear that perhaps there jhave been two processes - an earlier one where grants of nobility contained arms and a more recent process where a grant of arms might follow after a grant of nobility on the basis of a separate petition.
The article Ton kindly provided also distinguishes between the ranks and privileges of Papal Roman nobility and Papal foreign nobility.
It would be interesting to know if there are any diplomas of either grants of nobility and arms or separate grants fo arms that are accessible in published sources.
Colleagues,
I won’t respond to David’s unpleasant remark.
Fr. Guy made some good and interesting points, and I would like to return to them, but perhaps the best place would be to move that to the "Off-topic" area.
Denny - there is a heraldry of Papal nobility - how much of it there is and what it looks like will perhaps take some time to collect. I’m thankful for the leads provided here.
I sympathize with David’s comment in this respect: we ought, by now, to have finished with theoretical discussions in the absence of data and we should especially be past the questioning of the motives of those expressing views on either side.
George and Ton now seem to have turned to the empirical rather than theoretical aspects of this issue. I imagine all of us here would welcome seeing whatever heraldry George and others turn up.
gselvester;58190 wrote:
This is on the topic insofar as it gets to the heart of the basis for which this heraldry exists. What I mean is that I do not think that the historic practice of creating Papal nobles and the hereditary heraldry that goes with their titles is a thing "of the past" so to speak merely by accident. In other words, you seem to be saying that because of the reasons you have quoted regarding the nature of the Pope’s authority that it is simply that the Pope(s) can create nobles but it just so happens that the more recent ones choose not to. I don’t think that’s really what is happening.
After some thought about whether to place my response in this area, I thought I would place my response in the off-topic area even though I follow Fr. Guy’s reasoning that it is on-topic.
I dug up these 2 sites with some interesting pictures of arms. Now my Italian is shaky at best but with bablefish I could figure out that there were some special privileges attached to the title Marchesi di Baldachino, for instance at the bottom of the page there is a picture of a special seat they had in the Vatican. Also it seems that that the baldachin was an augmentation to their arms because of their noble rank but this could also be because they had a pope from that family ( I do not know this for sure could be due to the translation so if some reads Italian and I am wrong then please correct me). Here are the links :
http://www.serlupi.it/noname2.htm
thanx for those links Ton. i wish i knew Italian.
Ton, excellent links. There is quite a bit of information about heraldic rules and practices in the text. I will try to translate these and summarize them over the weekend.
George Lucki;58457 wrote:
Ton, excellent links. There is quite a bit of information about heraldic rules and practices in the text. I will try to translate these and summarize them over the weekend.
Sorry I’ve been away from the forum and have had little time to follow up.
I ran across this in one of de Magny’s works under arms of concession - in this case an armorial concession to add Pope Gregory`s own arms in whole or in part made to 23 high officials of his court to whom he had accorded the title of Count Palatine.
Le Pape Grégoire XV ayant créé, en 1621, vingt trois des principaux officiers de sa maison, chevaliers, citoyens et nobles romains, avec le litre de Comte Palatin, leur permit de porter ses armoiries pleines ou en partie, et de les ajouter comme ils l’entendraient à celles de leurs familles.
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