Since I am in a state where I can at least make some attempt at completing my old queue I decided a part of my physical therapy would be to work towards finishing the Irish Chiefs armorial roll I was working on when I had to abandon painting.
However, I always wondered what it would have looked like if the Irish had been able to develop a system of heraldry based on their own cultural traditions complete with all of its fancies/oddities. To that end I did some research on "if" there was some evidence of a royal crown used in Ireland before the Cambro-Norman invasion. I found several things of note, including a royal crown and the "rayed" crown I posted a link to in another thread here on the Kingdom of Ulster arms.
So, I combined that plus some other tid-bits I picked up in other places to come up with a ‘make believe’ system that I’m using for my Irish chiefs series.
The first, and only one to-date, that I completed is the one I’m sharing here. It is what I call the ‘Irish arms’ of O’Neill Buidhe of Clannaboy who in addition to being the Irish Prince of Clannaboy is also a Papal Principis of Clannaboy and Conti di Tyrone, as well as Conde de Tyrone and Visconde de Santa Monica of Setubal of the old Kingdom of Portugal.
Now, technically speaking this is not exactly correct as the O’Neill Buidhe of Clannaboy line were never seated, nor in control of Tyrone, though they do have two ancestors who were Kings of Ulster, rather they controlled an area that covers the baronies of Toome, Antrim, Massereene, and Belfast of Co. Antrim and Ards, Castlereagh, Kinelarty and Lecale of Co. Down, which are east of Co. Tyrone; the majority of those kings, however, were of the O’Neill Mor line, who were located in County Tyrone and some of whose ancestors were enobled as Counts of Tyrone upon their surrender and re-grant.
However, since his ancestors were recognized as being associated with Tyrone by the Portuguese crown and the Holy See and since he does have ancestors who were Kings of Ulster, I included the arms of the Kingdom of Ulster and the modern arms of Co. Tyrone both just for fun/the heck of it.
The really odd thing, imo, about the O’Neill Buidhe of Clannaboy arms are that they exactly identical to the arms of O’Neill of The Fews, who is a cadet of O’Neill Mor and the modern-day claimant for the O’Neill Mor chiefship and his genealogy was certified by a previous Lord Lyon some time ago. However, despite what people will try and tell you (if you look into many of the arms granted by Ulster Kings of Arms while independent kings and not united with Norry and under the authority of any other king you can see this for yourself) one will find that UKA granted the same arms to many people of the same name in the same area. However, how a previous UKA came to granting the same/identical arms to both O’Neill Buidhe of Clannaboy and O’Neill of The Fews is a mystery to me. And yet he did, so there they are. (A later UKA granted the same arms of Buidhe and Fews to the Chichester family who changed their name to O’Neill and became nobles, so now there are three entirely unrelated families of the same name with the exact same "O’Neill" arms)
Anyway, below is the "Irish arms" I did for this particular chief in this series I will try and finish as a part of my P.T. The crown atop the manteau is the royal crown, as noted in the other thread where you can go to the link for the information on it, in an Argent layout since Buidhe was never an Ard Ri (high king) like their Mor cousins were. The rayed crown atop the shield is essentially the same as in that same antiquaries article with a couple embellishments (hey, this is a make believe/what if project, so I indulged). I used a Purpure manteau lined Ermine and trimmed in a fur that was dyed Saffron (a color strongly associated with Irish chiefs, lords, petty kinds and kings, ref O’Neill Mor’s appearance before QE when and his kearn and gallowglass came wearing their saffron mantles etc). The white wand and sword are obviously alluding to the white wands that the Irish chiefs used to show their authority as well as their sword.
Anyway I hope you enjoy…if not…that’s OK too.
http://www.americanheraldry.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=94&pictureid=1601
Interesting achievement the crown is fascinating.
What is the ‘other thread’ with the link to the information about this old Irish royal crown ??
Nice looking Ulster hands. :D
Was asked in several PMs about the royal Irish crown and the radial Irish crown. So, here’s the link for the presentations that were given once from the Royal Irish Academy; the link is to an old issue of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland from 1903 (read pages 5-10):
Basically the helm I put on top was a crown that Keating described in his book on Irish history and families etc. The actual crown, according to these lectures and this journal, is in the hands of the Cambro-Norman family of Comerford who left Ireland and then lived in France.
As for the radial crown, this was pieced together from parts that were unearthed by Miss Margaret Stokes. It is the crown that has been fashioned together with new parts attached to the original ones and is in museum now; and it is the same one that the City of Armagh uses as their ‘ancient Irish crown’ as a crest coronet (that is also the crest coronet I tend to portray, though as I’ve said I’ve also used the more traditionally heraldically displayed one). Anyway this radial crown is the basis for the ‘ancient Irish crown’.
Donnchadh;90802 wrote:
So, here’s the link for the presentations that were given once from the Royal Irish Academy; the link is to an old issue of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland from 1903 (read pages 5-10):
Thanks for this only it is extremely frustrating to have Google deny access (at least to many of us not in the USA) to a volume long out of copyright in its home country.
Quote:
Basically the helm I put on top was a crown that Keating described in his book on Irish history and families etc. The actual crown, according to these lectures and this journal, is in the hands of the Cambro-Norman family of Comerford who left Ireland and then lived in France.
As for the radial crown, this was pieced together from parts that were unearthed by Miss Margaret Stokes. It is the crown that has been fashioned together with new parts attached to the original ones and is in museum now; and it is the same one that the City of Armagh uses as their ‘ancient Irish crown’ as a crest coronet (that is also the crest coronet I tend to portray, though as I’ve said I’ve also used the more traditionally heraldically displayed one). Anyway this radial crown is the basis for the ‘ancient Irish crown’.
This is very interesting, many thanks for that.
Derek Howard
Sorry Derek. I didn’t know it wouldn’t show there. I don’t know much IT stuff, but I can see if it will let me highlight, copy and paste here though I don’t think it will. Sorry it wouldn’t show there.
Derek Howard;90818 wrote:
Thanks for this only it is extremely frustrating to have Google deny access (at least to many of us not in the USA) to a volume long out of copyright in its home country…
Hmmmm .... I was able to see it. Here ya go:
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4213/brianboiroimhe.jpg
Note the "mandarin cap" crown on the table.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3787/irishradiatedcrown.jpg
—Guy
And here’s a rare image of Brian Boru’s queen:
http://wirednewyork.com/images/city-guide/liberty/liberty.jpg
—Guy
Very drole. . Thanks, Guy.
Now, of course, I shall have to track down Keating "History", 1723 and Archaeologia, v 47. I wonder what the evidence was for Ms Stokes to conjecture a reconstruction of a crown from 2 pieces and where these pieces now are?
Derek Howard
Derek Howard;90840 wrote:
Now, of course, I shall have to track down Keating "History", 1723 and Archaeologia, v 47. I wonder what the evidence was for Ms Stokes to conjecture a reconstruction of a crown from 2 pieces and where these pieces now are?
Derek
In case you haven’t found it already, the ever-wonderful archive.org has Archaeologia, v 47 in its collection (the link goes straight to the article - it is to be found on the right hand page).
Thanks Guy. I couldn’t get my laptop to do it. I’m sure it was my error. Thanks for sharing the images. Hopefully people can get in and read it too.
Plus, as I said, this is a "what if" project dealing with real chiefs and claimants and what appears to be real objects that I have taken artistic liberty with, as I noted in the beginning. Am I saying that this is how Irish Armory shoud, or ought, to be? No. Just wondering, artistically, "what if" we had been able to develop some sense of Irish armory outside of British influence—which I’m not saying is a bad thing. Again…it’s just for fun and physical therapy.
JamesD;90845 wrote:
In case you haven’t found it already, the ever-wonderful archive.org has Archaeologia, v 47 in its collection (the link goes straight to the article - it is to be found on the right hand page).
How kind of you. Thanks. There do appear to be a number of caveats about the hypothesis. Interestingly I studied Irish celtic bronzes at university in Belfast while in the Archaeology Dept there but I must have either forgotten or missed this entirely.
Derek Howard
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