Williams blazon help

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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08 August 2006 13:14
 

Michael and all;

I don’t know if anything is missing. I’m trying to refamiliarize myself with the language of blazon (it’s been a long time and I was never very good at it). To accomplish that, I’m going through the member’s arms section checking blazons against the renditions. So, when looking at The Gunny’s I noticed that his mantling is Azure doubled Argent as is the torse. The blazon says the torse is "of the colours" but I can’t see where the colours of the mantling are specified anywhere (so I would expect them to be Azure doubled Or). And yes, the blazon on the page you’ve referred us to is exactly the same as the one here. Geoff says the mantling is quoted as Azure doubled Argent, but I can’t find it (the blazon below is copied from our members’ pages). So, am I missing something, was there an original omission in the blazon as submitted, is this anything to actually care about or what?

Blazon of Arms

Or three co-joined Bendlets-sinister Azure Argent and Gules in Honour Point a Blackfoot Indian War-shield Tenne charged with a Grizzly Bear passant with five Eagle Feathers pendant all proper surmounted by US Cavalry insignia consisting of Sabres sheathed in saltire with guards to base and facing outwards also proper.

Blazon of Crest

From a torse of the colours an Angel Winged demi-Blackfoot Indian in full War-Bonnet affronte presenting a Pipe of Peace Bowl to sinister all proper gorged with a Tribal Necklace of pendants alternating Gules and Or beribboned Azure and Gules

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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08 August 2006 13:20
 

Patrick Williams wrote:

was there an original omission in the blazon as submitted, is this anything to actually care about or what?

 


It looks it could be clarified, and we care. :D   I think we have spent quite a bit of time arguing about blazons. :o   The arms were orginally blazoned by Geoff and the armiger, so I’m sure when they get back to the board they will ask for a correction.  There are several ways to do it, and I think the clearest is to blazon the mantling and substitute the wreath tinctures for the phrase "of the colors."

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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08 August 2006 13:20
 

Even if the mantling is specified as azure doubled argent (and Geoff would know what it’s supposed to be, as he was the herald working this project for the IAAH), that doesn’t mean the torse should be argent and azure as long as the blazon says it is a torse of the colors.  "The colors" in this formulation are the principal color and metal of the shield, and there’s no doubt that the principal metal in the shield is Or.  There’s no reason the torse can’t be blue and white, but if so, the blazon should read, "Out of a torse Argent and Azure…" not "a torse of the colors."

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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08 August 2006 14:25
 

Ah, thank you! I thought I was missing something…going back and forth from the blazon to the depiction and scratching my head. And then Geoff said it was spelled out in the blazon: I was VERY confused for a minute or two. :confused:

 
GJKS
 
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GJKS
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08 August 2006 22:04
 

Patrick Williams wrote:

I was VERY confused for a minute or two. :confused:


Sorry about that.  I’ve just gone back through my records and found that the mantling and torse for these arms was indeed originally Azure doubled Or and that is the reason that they were blazoned this way.  Somewhere along the trail, the mantling has changed to Azure doubled Argent and the crest Indian has sprouted wings. I believe that the sprouting of wings took place some time in 2004 when I was unavailable for most of the year.  Here is a copy of the original design from November 2003:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gjksheraldry/shield60a.gif

I’m glad that you spotted that, which then brought me back to the IAAH webpage which is not of my compilation. The web-page at the IAAH will be rectified in the near future.  Attention to detail is important, especially with blazons and I’m always receptive to the critiquing of any blazons that I formulate and welcome such revelations so that any inconsistencies revealed might be corrected as a matter of urgency.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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08 August 2006 22:49
 

It did seem very surprising that Geoff would have made such a mistake.  That the emblazonment has been altered since his involvement accounts for the confusion.  Now we just have to await word from Gunny as to the rationale for the change, assuming it was intentional.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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09 August 2006 00:50
 

I like both. However, I really like this one. I love the crest.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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09 August 2006 08:50
 

I like them both quite well. It’s a wonderful design! And now I can stop being confused (whew!).

Here’s another question, this time just using this achievement as an example.

 

Looking at the bendlets sinister-I’d want to describe them from dexter to sinister-Gules, Argent and Azure, but here they’re described sinister to dexter. Is that because the bendlets are sinister?

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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09 August 2006 08:57
 

And strangely, in the rendition that Gunny has posted, they are now dexter to sinister, Azure, Argent and Gules.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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09 August 2006 17:20
 

Patrick Williams wrote:

And strangely, in the rendition that Gunny has posted, they are now dexter to sinister, Azure, Argent and Gules.


Not to mention the addition of the crossed cavalry swords.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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09 August 2006 18:00
 

And, of course, the Blackfoot war shield is now Tenne, the bear passant, etc. Actually, this is a good example of how a design develops, isn’t it?

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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09 August 2006 18:13
 

Brian Yurochko’s arms:

Blazon of Arms

Azure, in chief three mullets one and two, the lower ones with two points up and one-half the size of the upper, in center a phoenix proper fimbriated Or rising from flames proper, in base, an open book pages proper and cover or.

Blazon of Crest

On a wreath and mantling of the colors, a demi lion sable, langued gules, armed and orbed argent, holding a closed book gules a bend argent with a voided equilateral triangle gules pointing chiefwise.

 

 

Is a mullet automatically Argent unless specified otherwise? Otherwise, we’re missing the Argent in the description that makes wreath and torse of the colors. I’m not trying to be a pain in the butt here, really I’m not. :rolleyes:

 

Would you rather I just pm’d somebody with these rather than taking up forum space? If so, who…I’ve got yet another one.