Jumping in with both feet…

 
Jim Pelletier
 
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Jim Pelletier
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Joined  20-06-2006
 
 
 
22 June 2006 19:11
 

Well, here goes…

I am very new to heraldry in general, and to designing it in particular.  The real drive to get this deep into the art was the death of my two nephews, born 16 weeks early.  (I’ll place the link to my blog about them at the bottom.  If you choose to visit, it pulls no punches and it was/is therapy for me…)

 

Any way, in trying to come to grips with their deaths and come up with some way to remember them I decided to emblazon joint arms for them.

 

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Sam+Nate2-1.png

This is the first version.  Blazoning the arms I think I can handle, but the crest has me stumped as to how to describe the twin bulls’ heads. (Based on a "family crest" my brother-in-law’s family has a photocopy of which shows a bull passant.)

 

Shield: Quarterly, 1st and 4th Sable the Constellation Gemini Argent, 2nd Azure a fleur-de-lis of the Second, 3rd Or a lion rampant Gules armed and langued of the Third.

Motto: Ne Cede Malis - Don’t give in to Misfortune

 

My Dad’s family is French-Canadian and my brother-in-law’s is Scottish (among others, I picked one), hence the fleur-de-lis and rampant lion.  I probably screwed up the First, Second, Third, but…

 

I later changed the representation of Gemini to the astronomical symbol for the constellation:

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Sam+Nate-1.png

 

Then I went really nuts and added some supporters:

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Sam+Nate3-1.png

 

The supporters bear the "house flag" I came up with for my sister and brother-in-law, based on their coat-of-arms.  Probably not vexillogically correct either, but… (I had a lot of bereavement time that week.)

 

So all that led me here, and seeing everyone’s incredible arms led to create my own:

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Jim-8-1.png

Shield: Per pale Argent and Azure, in dexter a Staff of Asclepius Tenne, in sinister two portculli of the First in pale.

Crest: From a wreath of the colors, a demi-lion rampant Argent armed and langued Azure holding in its dexter claw a chaplet of oak and laurel leaves and a Star-of-Life all proper.

Motto: Aude Aliquid Dignum - Dare Something Worthy

 

As my profile states, I’m a paramedic and have been in EMS for fourteen years.  It’s about the only thing I’ve ever actually completed after high school, so I wanted to commemorate that.  The Staff of Asclepius is, outside of the US, the correct symbol of medicine and the portculli (portcullises?) emphasize the emergency-only function of the two services I work for and the protection we provide.  (I put two there because they look better than only one.)  The staff is orange because of the "worthy endeavor" of working in EMS and it’s the primary color of my full-time department’s patch.

 

Well.  Sorry to have been so long-winded.  I, of course, welcome comments, suggestions, even flames.  I came here to learn.

 

I don’t claim to be any sort of artist, vector-based, royalty-free clipart and Adobe Illustrator are good things…

 

Regards,

Jim Pelletier

 

Link: Sam & Nate’s Blog

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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22 June 2006 20:48
 

Jim, welcome again.

First, I am sorry for your family’s loss. I understand what it is like to loose a little one and I am sorry y’all have had to deal with that.

 

As for the heraldry, let me go achievement by achievement in my comments.

 

First achievement: Nice balance and symmetry even with the astrological charges – in point of fact there is precedence for astrological charges in arms. I don’t personally like them, but they can work well, as evidenced here. I also like the idea of having two shields to represent both boys – others may disagree, but I like them even though I would’ve made a coat of arms for each of them. The idea of a French and Scottish connection is also OK. As for the crest, are they to be conjoined heads? If so it would simply be: a double-headed bull couped each facing out sable, armed or (now I hope the more expert heraldry enthusiasts here, like Joe, Guy, Fr. Guy, John, Seb, Mike S., Mike M., etc. will correct that where it is wrong.) As for the motto, I would personally place separate scroll at top with both boys names on it instead of them flanking the motto on the bottom, but this is a personal choice and I don’t really know what, or if, the hard rules are on that. Also I’d remove the scroll that is flanking the sides of the shield, for there really isn’t any real need for it.

 

Second achievement: Again nice balance and symmetry. I prefer the astrological symbols for Gemini even better than the constellation. Otherwise read the rest of critique for first achievement.

 

Third achievement: Again nice balance even with the supporters and banners, although I would move the supporters in more towards the shield, as they look to be stretching way too much to actually be supporters in this case; they take on the look of a heraldic accessory specifically for the banners alone. Again removing the scroll from the side of the shield will allow you to bring the supporters in to support the shield, as well as hold the banners. Now, as for the idea of having supporters, I am for it. However, I am not in the majority opinion on this – though our “pro-supporters’ minority isn’t as small as some might think, but it’s definitely not the majority opinion and better men and better heraldry enthusiasts than I will hold to this point of view. I personally see no problem with an American adopting and using them for what I consider to be worthwhile and valid reasons, obviously, but others feel the contrary also for good reason. So, on this one my advice would be to listen to the wisdom of everyone here and weigh your options, but whatever you do use discretion. For example, I use supporters and will always do so. However, for my arms here I did not post them out of respect to my fellow members who do not agree with using them. This way when one comes to my home and sees my armorial achievement they will see it with supporters, as they would when I use them on other things. However, one will not see them much here unless I post them for discussion purposes. As for the banners, again this is a heraldic device I am a proponent of. In this case you have shown them to have a most worthy reason for display. Plus, they look very nice and are not overly busy.

 

Fourth achievement: I like this one a lot Jim. I think it is attractive, well balanced, well thought out, and well executed. I would only suggest making the Staff of Asclepius a bit larger. The two portcullises on the sinister fill out the field very well, but I think the staff could fill out the dexter side a little bit more. The concept is great and I really like it. The crest is also wonderful.

 

All in all I think it is very nice; I think you thought it all out well and came up with something worthwhile.

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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22 June 2006 22:53
 

Jim,

Firstly, I also would like to express my great sorrow for your family’s loss.

My heraldry-related comments:

I was wondering what was the source of the motto for the twins is?  Something you created?

Also I wanted to compliment you on the fine job you did artistically; for someone who claims to be a novice you sure impress.

 

Sometime when life returns to as normal as it’s going to get, I hope you can share with us your brother-in-law’s photocopy.

 

Yours,

M. A. Olivo

 
Jim Pelletier
 
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Jim Pelletier
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22 June 2006 23:06
 

Mark Olivo wrote:

Jim,

Firstly, I also would like to express my great sorrow for your family’s loss.

My heraldry-related comments:

I was wondering what was the source of the motto for the twins is?  Something you created?

Also I wanted to compliment you on the fine job you did artistically; for someone who claims to be a novice you sure impress.

 

Sometime when life returns to as normal as it’s going to get, I hope you can share with us your brother-in-law’s photocopy.

 

Yours,

M. A. Olivo


Mark -

 

Thank you to you and Donnchadh for your kind words for my nephews.

 

As for the motto, I just Googled for latin mottoes and "Ne Cede Malis" simply stood out when I saw it on one of the web pages I looked at.  It’s certainly appropriate.  The same worked for me when I went looking for my motto and the one for my department’s arms ("In Omnia Paratus" which translates to "Ready for Anything.")

 

I’ll take credit for the composition of the arms, but the artistry, as I said, come from the clip art I purchased.  Well, most of it any way.  I did do the Gemini symbols and the portcullises on my arms.  ("The portcullises?" "And the hat, but she is a witch!"  Sorry, it’s late and it popped into my head… :rolleyes: )

 

Tomorrow I’ll probably have time to post the very poor .GIF I have of the arms my sister-in-law-in-law (?) gave me, as well as the arms I did up for my department.

 

G’Night.

 
DRShorey
 
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DRShorey
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23 June 2006 01:10
 

Jim,

I too share my condolences on your loss. I think your efforts here are an amazing tribute to your kids and to yourself.

 

Dave Shorey

 
Jeremy K. Hammond
 
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Jeremy K. Hammond
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23 June 2006 10:52
 

Jim,

I’m sorry for your loss. The loss of innocent children is hard to come to grips with. Any form of "therapy" you can employ to help will work and it appears as if you have found a good way to cope and deal with your grief.

T.R. Griffith

 
Jim Pelletier
 
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Jim Pelletier
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23 June 2006 11:49
 

Thanks, again, guys for all your kind words.

Having taken Donnchadh’s advice, I reworked both sets of arms.  For my nephews’, I removed the bush and ribbon from behind the shield, shortened the bottom ribbon to only show the motto, combined the four fleur-de-lis of the Quebec flag with the white saltire of Scotland’s and replaced the 2nd and 3rd quarters with it:

 

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Sam+Nate-5-1.png

 

For my own, I copied the staff and placed the two addorsed on the dexter field.  They now occupy the same amount of area as the portcullises on the sinister side:

 

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Jim-8a3-1.pnghttp://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Jim-8-3-1.png

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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23 June 2006 12:14
 

Jim, now I really like this version of the arms for your nephews!! smile

Plus, as I said in the PM, I do like your edited version of your own arms as well.

 
Jim Pelletier
 
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Jim Pelletier
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23 June 2006 12:56
 

I almost forgot, Mark, that I’d uploaded that image I got from my brother-in-law:

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Coles.jpg

 

Not the best image, I know…

 
Vijay
 
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Vijay
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23 June 2006 19:17
 

I know usually when new designs are posted "quarterly" there are some comments regarding how it appears as if the design reflects the marrage of two armigerious famillies.

I also recall some discussion about a Scottish(?) tradition of quartered arms not having those implications.

 

I’m a bit hazy on the details, so I’ll leave it up to someone who knows what they’re talking ‘bout to explain further.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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23 June 2006 19:32
 

Yes, I was going to mention this point.

Quartered arms almost invariably indicate the combination of two or more preexisting coats.  In personal arms, the combination reflects descent from armigerous families in the female as well as male lines; in the British tradition, this occurs, with limited exceptions, only when a woman has no brothers to inherit her father’s arms.

 

The exception Vijay is referring to is the tradition in the West Highlands of Scotland.  Alistair Campbell of Airds, on the Heraldry Society of Scotland site, explains:


Quote:

West Highland Heraldry is characterised by the use of quartered arms and by the repetitive use of one or more of a number of highly symbolic charges.  These are: the Lion Rampant, the Galley, the Hand [usually holding a cross], [and] the Salmon.  The use of quartering is of course usual practice to denote dynastic marriage but this is not the case here: it is a more general connection and the term coined for it is "totemic".

There is also frequent use of rocks and castles but these can be traced in nearly every case to the actual ownership or keepership of identifiable sites.

 

So it is that in the West Highlands and Islands we find this kind of coat in use today for a wide range of families, among them the Clan Dougall, the Clan Donald, the Macleans of Duart and the Maclaines of Lochbuie, the MacNeils of Barra and the McNeills of Gigha, the MacLachlans and of course their various cadets.


One way of getting around the appearance of a shield formed by combining preexisting family arms is to unify it by placing an ordinary over the four quarters (e.g., a cross, fess, or pale over all) or putting a bordure around them.

 
Jim Pelletier
 
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Jim Pelletier
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23 June 2006 19:54
 

Joe, Vijay -

What about this?  Does this solve some of the issues that you mentioned?

 

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Sam+Nate-5a1.png

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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23 June 2006 20:00
 

Not really; it would normally be interpreted as the man bearing Sable two Gemini symbols Or having married a woman whose father bore Azure a saltire between four fleurs-de-lis Argent.

Putting them on a shield divided per fess wouldn’t have the same implication, at least not in British inspired heraldry; not sure what it would mean in, say, German.

 

You might think about "Per saltire Sable and Azure a saltire Argent between two Gemini signs in pale Or and two fleurs-de-lis in the flanks Argent."  Or something like that.

 
Donnchadh
 
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23 June 2006 20:26
 

Well, there is a tradition of arms being quartered in the West Highlands and in Irish arms, though to a smaller extent in Irish arms – but there none-the-less. In those traditions there is no immediate association with married quarterings per se. Joe, I believe, posted a hyperlink in the previous MB, to an article written by a Mr. Campbell (Joe correct me if that name is wrong or missing a Sir instead of Mr. and what not).

That is at the Heraldry Society of Scotland’s website and it is a good one, except for some points on the Irish strand which he put in the article, but that is minor, well except for the “upsetting the apple cart” crack, but I think this was meant as good humor more than anything else. Anyway I recommend the article wholeheartedly for anyone wanting to know more about the quarterings and charges therein.

 

Is this what you are referring to?

 

Hello Donnchadh…should’ve read the next page before posting…D’Oh!

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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23 June 2006 20:41
 

Jim check out the members section and see the arms of Griffith. Under our presidents is one impaled…

...or visit this site http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/westhigh.html and see the article referred to by Joe above.

 

In this way you can quarter without looking too much like a heraldic heir or married arms etc.

 

You’ll see, usually four different quarters. It is the same with the Irish arms one can see in the works by Dr. MacLysaght.

 

However, while it does resemble a heraldic heir, I still like the arms with the saltire and fleur-de-lis. If you go to the American College of Heraldry website and view some of the arms there you will also see quartered arms, so while it may not be best to do this, it is not unheard of in American arms.

 

Still, I’d take the advice of people like Joe, as they’ve "been at this game" longer than a lot of us…certainly myself.

 
Jim Pelletier
 
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Jim Pelletier
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23 June 2006 21:16
 

Joe, I hope I’ve interpreted your suggestion correctly:

http://www.worcesterems.com/DKSN/Images/Sam+Nate-6a1.png