Crests for wives

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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29 August 2006 16:59
 

Quick question: On the achievement for a wife who has impaled her husband’s and father’s shields, whose crest would you depict on her arms?

 
Patrick Williams
 
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29 August 2006 17:44
 

Mark Olivo wrote:

Quick question: On the achievement for a wife who has impaled her husband’s and father’s shields, whose crest would you depict on her arms?


Traditionally, if I remember correctly, a woman is not allowed the courtesy use of her fathers’ helm & crest, unless he is dead and she the heiress in her own right (in which case an escutcheon of pretense is more appropriate). So, if dad’s alive, then hubbie’s helm & crest is the only one shown. If she is heiress in her own right, then both could be displayed. Now, if she is also an armiger, say in Canada, where women are granted helm and crest just like men…

 

But I just looked at your question again: "On the achievement for a wife who has impaled her husband’s and father’s shields"...a wife doesn’t impale her husband’s shield, her husband impales hers. It then becomes a ‘marital achievement’, not the achievement of the wife alone. I would suppose that if they were both armigers with helm & crest they would either display his alone or both together.

 
Mark Olivo
 
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29 August 2006 18:11
 

Patrick Williams wrote:

...a wife doesn’t impale her husband’s shield, her husband impales hers.


You knew what I meant! grin

But her father is alive and well, and the arms are his.  I’m wondering whether there is a generally accepted ‘Iberian’ custom regarding this question however, since things are a bit different.

I’d love to know if there is.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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29 August 2006 18:43
 

Just because I might know what you mean does not mean that I’m not going to tease you about it!

http://www.geocities.com/tp_davis/SpanishArms.html

 

"Depending upon the destination of the arms as stated in the Certification, the arms may descend undifferenced to the legitimate heirs male only or to both the heirs male and female. Women who are not heraldic heiresses can transmit their arms to their offspring. "

 

So, if the arms are Iberian, she may or may not have the right to display them at all, depending on the terms of the certification. But what about crests?

 

http://www.alsgenealogy.com/spanish-heraldry.htm

 

"The charges shown on Spanish armorial bearings can depict historical events or deeds of war.  They are also characterized by a widespread use of orles and borders around the edge of the shield.  In addition to borders, Spain and Portugal marshal arms more conventionally by quartering. The Spanish also allow words and letters on the shield itself, a practice which is considered incorrect (actually akin to blasphemy) in northern Europe.  There is also a lack of crests, and mottoes are rare."

 

If the arms are Iberian, there may not be a crest, per se, to display. It appears that it was much more common in Iberia to just have plumes of feathers on the helmet.

 

http://estrada.bz/heraldry.htm

 

Some interesting stuff here, too. As well as some creepy stuff: "Legally, the coat of arms of an individual may not be used by his descendants or relatives unless one claims and obtains the title that goes with the coat of arms. However, it has become common practice for any descendant to use a coat of arms granted to an ancestor, as a means of identifying with the nobility of the lineage." Freakin’ bucket shops.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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29 August 2006 19:12
 

And this site really makes me wish I spoke Portugese!

http://www.armorial.net/

 
Mark Olivo
 
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29 August 2006 20:34
 

I could read a great deal of it, but a lot of the links were dead.  Especially the heraldica de familia part.

It’s a sticky wicket.

To be more specific, I am talking about arms assumed by my father in law here in the US.  He did opt to have a crest.  But I have seen crests on Spanish arms certifications; it is not unheard of but is more rare than in England obviously.

 

I know that we in the US are not directly constrained by British practices, but even in unofficial groups such as this there is still a great deal of reliance on English rules and sources.  It’s a shame, since so much of the US was at one point or another Spanish (or Mexican) territory, and such a large number of us claim Hispanic heritage.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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29 August 2006 21:03
 

Mark, while I too see that there is a great reliance on English practice, I also see that if you show the practice, delineate the rule and claim it as part of your ethnic heritage that folks here are open to difference (as long as those differences make heraldic sense).

Lately I’ve been studying Polish heraldry, which is really fascinating and quite different from anything I’ve seen anywhere else. I’m sure if a Pole, or someone of Polski extraction, whipped out a Polish style achievement…well, you get the picture.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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29 August 2006 22:14
 

Quote:

I know that we in the US are not directly constrained by British practices, but even in unofficial groups such as this there is still a great deal of reliance on English rules and sources. It’s a shame, since so much of the US was at one point or another Spanish (or Mexican) territory, and such a large number of us claim Hispanic heritage.


Mark, this is exactly why I am leery of a best conduct series unless it is all inclusive of the diverse sub-cultures within this great nation. Which, by the by I think Joe has done by and large (can’t think of anything off the top of my head where he hadn’t). However, it is something I am very, very conscious of in my dealings with clients. In the thread I started on the arms I’ve done you’ll note many Hispanic persons/arms. In those cases I tried to be as Iberian as I could.

 

This is one of my main points on American heraldry; that it can not be dominated British elements. And yes I recognize the impact of British heraldry on American especially out east.

 

I say include it on alongside yours, but that’s me.

 
Scotus
 
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Scotus
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30 August 2006 06:12
 

Donnchadh wrote:

This is one of my main points on American heraldry; that it can not be dominated British elements.


Donnchadh:

 

I think you mean English, not British.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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30 August 2006 12:30
 

Yep, you’re right good Father. Thanks.