My wife’s arms

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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29 August 2006 11:49
 

Linus,

Here’s an example of counterchanging by one of our own members:

 

http://www.heraldrysociety.us/MemberArmPages/membersarms.php?page=Hardin

 

Note how the lion is divided argent and gules.

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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29 August 2006 13:36
 

The problem I have with counterchanging the falcon, is that I can’t find a good green tone to go on the falcon’s breast. Everything looks awful that I have tried.

So i tried to fix it by giving the falcon a shadow and a more solid outline. I have some other ideas to fix this as well though.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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29 August 2006 15:10
 

Linusboarder wrote:

The problem I have with counterchanging the falcon, is that I can’t find a good green tone to go on the falcon’s breast. Everything looks awful that I have tried.

So i tried to fix it by giving the falcon a shadow and a more solid outline. I have some other ideas to fix this as well though.


Linus, a solid outline and shading won’t fix it. The rule is "no color on color, no metal on metal, no fur on fur". We can’t help you get around that rule (there are some small exceptions sometimes, but they’re supposed to be small and rare-like the color of a lion’s claws). We can help you change your design to something that fits within the rule, but not get around the rule. Additionally, there’s really not much we can do to help you with ‘tone’. The colors (or as some write ‘colours’) are red, black, blue, green and purple. The metals are gold and silver (represented by yellow and white). These are most usually shown as the primary colors red, black, blue, green, purple, yellow and white.

 

Using your arms as an example, counterchanging would mean drawing a line down the middle of the falcon that corresponds exactly with the division of the shield in pale. The green for the bird on the gold shield would be the same green that you used on the shield. The gold for the bird on the green side of the shield would be the same gold that you used on the shield. In other words, the whole dexter side of the falcon would be the same shade of green, the whole sinister side would be the same shade of gold. We only have green and gold to work with, not differing shades of the colors.

 

The reason for this is actually pretty simple. Describe what you’ve already drawn up entirely in words so that somebody who has never seen it could do a reasonable job of painting it on a piece of paper.

 

Now I’ll steal Joseph’s gig: Because we live in the USA and there is no heraldic authority here you can do anything you want. That will not make it ‘good heraldry’, nor will any registry accept your arms if you want to register them sometime (because they’re not drawn up by the rules of blazon). But…you can do whatever you want!

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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29 August 2006 15:43
 

As an example of counterchanging, I altered one of the mockups I did earlier. This is a counterchanged falcon:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g29/PaddyW_photos/linus2b.jpg

 

You’ll also note that I changed the hearts to Erminois and Pean just for a little fun!

 
Jeremy K. Hammond
 
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Jeremy K. Hammond
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29 August 2006 16:02
 

I moved this to the Members section. Now that Linus is a member you can continue the discussion there.

One thing we want to try and do as a society is promote good heraldry however, we don’t want to be a design firm for everyone.  We could quickly get over-run and not have the time nor the patience to ensure that one of our main goals of education is met.

 

If you want to see several design ideas at once then using clip art is the way I would recommend, that is what I use and what I do when I help people.  I make several versions using the charges, colors and design elements they want and then narrow it down from there.  I also recommend highly they take what I give them to a real artist and get a painted version.  However, I also provide them with a CD that has vectorized artwork so that they can reproduce what I do on any scale.  I have a few people that love the look of the clip-art and have had preferred for me just to use computer painting skills to embellish the standard clip art.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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29 August 2006 19:37
 

I wouldn’t fret over the shade of Vert Linus. I understand it is difficult given the clipart and computer graphics you have. However, any good artist, let alone the masters, will be able to make the Vert "pop" if you will. There are a few things I want to tell you, as an artist myself, and hope it helps you in your design.

Always remember your color wheel and in the case of heraldry adhere to the rules of color, metal and fur at almost all costs. This is a good basic color wheel and theory site

 

http://www.colormatters.com/colortheory.html

 

Now I recommend visiting this site to get a basic understanding of color theory. Why? Because you will soon see that Sable as a diminutive color with regard to a medium or dark Vert is a very bad idea because the human eye has great difficulty seeing the Sable, as it is swamped with the Vert. Now outside heraldry this would mean that a lighter shade of Vert would be acceptable. But, that defeats one of the purposes of heraldry, which is easy recognition of clear symbols. It is the same with the gold on gold. The human eye has a difficult time distinguishing the charge because it is swamped with the Or. No matter how dark you make the shading lines your eye will still register it in this way. Even using monochromatic colors (different shades of the same color) will not help because the eye will still register it as before. This is great technique when doing scenery in an impressionist medium. However beautiful nature’s color schemes are they do not always stand out against each other and certainly not in the way that heraldry is intended to. So, to get that you must cast colors against metals as a rule.

 

Now it is entirely possible, as I said, even though it is rare (I’ve only seen it once on an Irish coat of arms for either a city or county council or some other such civic arms) where the ermine spot is used but placed in a different color. So, if you want to keep the 2 pigments in your wife’s arms and the hearts and the ermine spots on them go ahead and do so. Simply make the one heart ‘Vert, charged with an ermine tail Or’ and the other heart ‘Or, charged with an ermine tail Vert’. But, my good friend you are really going to have no choice but to counterchange the falcon.

 

Trust in a good artist. When it comes time to render them he/she will be able to use a monochromatic color scheme on the Or to give the Or life and dimension and the Vert the same thing. For example, I have several shades of Vert that I use, as I do with all my primary and secondary colors (here metals and colors). It is the same with black, as there are many shades of black and gray (my blacks and grays range from 100% to 10%). So, any artist you choose will make the Vert pop off of the Or and vice versa. It may not show on the computerized version you are doing now, but with an artists touch it will. Even a "B" level (bfor ‘basic’) artist like me can make things come to life and the masters, well, they and their work speaks for itself. The point is to trust in the design and the ability of the artist you will eventually employ. As long as the design is sound the rendering, any rendering, will come out just fine. I promise you, as an artist, this is the case.

 

As to your arms, I would go with the following based off of your latest design (but others may have better ideas): Per pale Or and Vert, a falcon close in chief two hearts each charged with two ermine tails all Counterchanged.

 

Now I can’t draw this up for you, as I no longer do free work, but I am sure someone here can put this into a computer program and show you what I mean about the hearts being charged with ermine tails and the whole thing being counterchanged. If someone does I thank you for my part.

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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30 August 2006 01:22
 

Well thanks for the help, when i said "get around" the rule i meant follow them, but still keep the design similar to the way I want it. So i played around with it tonight and here’s what I came up with. I like it a lot

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/c40e9822bd.png

As you can see there’s very little or on or, but it still incorporates the design i want (might change the hearts to Patrick’s Erminois and Pean though, cause they look good, and give me ideas for My father-in-laws arms.. down the road).

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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30 August 2006 02:09
 

Lines, that looks better. But, have you considered trying this as it would accommodate the symbols better within the shield: Per fess Or and Vert, in chief two hearts charged with two ermine tails and in base a falcon close all counterchanged ? I ask as this would make the color on color break go away and would in fact fit the shield better all the way around.

Also using erminois and pean (I believe it is blazoned pean others will correct me I hope if wrong) is a good choice as Sable and Or are great color combinations. However, before you make that change try the above blazon I just gave you to see if it works well this way…just a thought.

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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30 August 2006 02:44
 

I’ve got that up on my computer, and I just don’t like that as much. I don’t know why, but i don’t like the Per fess that much, i’d rather do a per chevron.

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/f9a61441ed.png

 

Here is the same thing with the erminois and the pean

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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30 August 2006 02:47
 

Ah man…I should’ve thought of that! That is even better for a fit for the charges Linus! How does it appear?

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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30 August 2006 03:20
 

Heck I am going to try and blazon this my best (even though i’m not very good) here’s the Per Chevron Vert and Or, in Chief a falcon, in base a heart charged pean (or erminois i don’t know)

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/338c30c2b5.png

 
Patrick Williams
 
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30 August 2006 09:41
 

That’s looking better! The heart is Pean, indeed, but is not ‘charged’ it is a charge. So the blazon would be:

Per Chevron Vert and Or, in Chief a falcon close (that tells people what the bird’s doing) Or beaked and armed Sable, in base a heart <i>Pean.</i>

 

The division per chevron usually has a much bigger ‘pie wedge’ though (look at these arms http://www.heraldrysociety.us/MemberArmPages/membersarms.php?page=Howard ). Here’s another one to try:

 

Per Chevron Or and Vert in Chief two Hearts Erminois and Pean in Base a Falcon close Or beaked and armed Sable

 

I think you’ll like the balance better. This puts an erminois heart in the dexter chief, a pean heart in the sinister chief and the falcon in base.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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30 August 2006 09:54
 

Let me give you my rationale for this idea:

First, the ‘pie wedge’ cut out by the division per chevron needs to be bigger. This will balance the design much better. Second, the eye is drawn in a division per chevron to the base. Put your most important charge there. Third: take a quick look at the one you have posted already: there’s a lot of ‘dead’ space in the chief. Using 2 hearts, one on each side both erminois, or pean or varied, will fill the space better. All of these suggestions are a) my opinion only, so take them in that vein and b) to give you what I feel to be a better overall sense of balance in the design! wink

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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30 August 2006 11:09
 

I personally like the per fess better (last post of page 4) so I will probably be going with that on. I will probably try your idea with the chevron and making the wedge bigger just to see how it looks though.

I will also show my wife all of these and basically let her choose, since it is her shield and all smile

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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30 August 2006 12:28
 

Linus because of the shape of the falcon it would be better in base and the heart(s) in chief. Try to reverse their positions and add another heart—Per chevron Vert and Or, in chief two hearts charged with two ermine tails and in base a falcon close all counterchanged.