more of my armorial creations - wedded arms & assumptions

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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16 September 2006 15:50
 

Here are the married arms of my brother-in-law and sister. Both are of Irish ancestry and that is why there is the Gules, doubled Argent mantling and their surnames in Irish. My sister has her master’s and is working towards a doctorate and is an avid reader, hence the book for a crest. My brother-in-law is the son of a third generation Nebraska corn farmer and whose family goes back to the Gibbens (MaGibben Burke) of County Mayo, Ireland.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/4231/karissascottarmscolorfinalrv2.jpg

And here are the finished arms less motto and supporters of Assumption parish – they wanted a darker blue and to loose the Alpha and Omega from the book.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8927/assumptionparisharmscolorgx8.jpg

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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16 September 2006 16:37
 

Very cool stuff Denny.

I have a question though (and this is purely for my educational purpose and not meant as a criticism at all). Why are you and your sister’s arms the same?

As I understand it each arms should be unique for each individual, yet it appears to me as your arms are the same (even with different crests). Obviously there are no hard rules on any of this, but this was just the understanding I had. When I looked through Von Volborth’s book it shows a Scottish cadency system of borders used to differentiate between sons, (I am assuming this passes over to daughters as well in modern times).

 

Like I said not a criticism just an inquiry. Your artwork is very distinct and fantastic.

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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16 September 2006 16:46
 

Linusboarder wrote:

Very cool stuff Denny.

I have a question though (and this is purely for my educational purpose and not meant as a criticism at all). Why are you and your sister’s arms the same?

As I understand it each arms should be unique for each individual, yet it appears to me as your arms are the same (even with different crests). Obviously there are no hard rules on any of this, but this was just the understanding I had. When I looked through Von Volborth’s book it shows a Scottish cadency system of borders used to differentiate between sons, (I am assuming this passes over to daughters as well in modern times).

 

Like I said not a criticism just an inquiry. Your artwork is very distinct and fantastic.


My guess is that he did not the Scottish cadency system because it is a Scottish cadency system.  It has been suggested that one adopt the system used in the immigrant ancestor’s fatherland, but most do not use cadency (which really is meant to peg the first born son as heir).  Now, even countries with a tradition of using cadency do not adhere to their own traditions.

 

Donnchadh: Nice drawings!

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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16 September 2006 16:51
 

Michael Swanson wrote:

My guess is that he did not the Scottish cadency system because it is a Scottish cadency system.  It has been suggested that one adopt the system used in the immigrant ancestor’s fatherland, but most do not use cadency (which really is meant to peg the first born son as heir).  Now, even countries with a tradition of using cadency do not adhere to their own traditions.


Well true and with a last name of MacGoff i mentioned Scottish because of the obvious connection. But I guess my question is if most countries didn’t use some sort of cadency system and didn’t differentiate between arms at all,  were there a lot of repeat arms for borthers and then later cousins and second cousins?

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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16 September 2006 17:07
 

Linusboarder wrote:

Well true and with a last name of MacGoff i mentioned Scottish because of the obvious connection. But I guess my question is if most countries didn’t use some sort of cadency system and didn’t differentiate between arms at all,  were there a lot of repeat arms for borthers and then later cousins and second cousins?


Yes, there will be lots of duplication down the tree.

 

"Both are of Irish ancestry…"

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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16 September 2006 17:51
 

Michael Swanson wrote:

"Both are of Irish ancestry…"

D’oh, my bad.

 

But still this confuses me. Let’s say there’s a patriarch of a family named "ABC", who has 5 sons and no cadency system is used so all 5 sons have the same arms. Then each of them has 2 sons (for simplicity’s sake), and each of their sons has 2 sons, and this happens for generations. For examples sake lets say we go through 6 generations. So now there are 80 men of the same generation who have the exact same arms, yet are very very very different people. How does this accomplish heraldry’s goal which is at it’s basic principle (as I understand it) a form of identification? And the problem gets exponentially worse with every generation.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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16 September 2006 20:31
 

Good questions Colin and don’t worry about appearing to be criticizing; I like criticization (is that even a real word?) of my work, for as an artist it is the only way I get better. So, in the future feel free to criticize away. In fact that is the only way I was able to ‘perfect’ as well as a mere mortal man can the arms of Assumption…we are on try 20 something with correction made by suggestions here and the constant flip-flopping of the church itself wink

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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16 September 2006 20:45
 

Quote:

Donnchadh: Nice drawings!


Thanks Mike. smile

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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16 September 2006 20:55
 

Helps a lot and clears up any questions I had, it was also a very interesting explination/story.

Cheers

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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18 September 2006 16:24
 

Very nice artwork!  One suggestion to consider—when the husband’s arms & helmet are turned to "respect" (face) the wife’s, usually the charges on the shield are also turned, as you did with your brother-in-law’s crest, to also face the wife’s arms.  With some designs the arms are perfectly symmetrical but with arms like these (or mine) we have to fiddle with the usual presentation to preserve the appearance that our charge-beastie is moving towards the wife, not running away!

This practice is almost always followed when the shields are shown accolle & respecting—i.e. tilted towards each other—but its not universal.  For example, if the shields are both upright AND both helmets are shown facing to dexter, then nothing is reversed—the visual image then shows both arms progressing in the same direction together.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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18 September 2006 17:13
 

Quote:

Very nice artwork! One suggestion to consider—when the husband’s arms & helmet are turned to "respect" (face) the wife’s, usually the charges on the shield are also turned, as you did with your brother-in-law’s crest, to also face the wife’s arms.


I so wanted to do this, but in my Neubecker book the arms I seen this with were mostly non British and while the Irish are most decidedly not British their heraldic practice is in fact an offspring of that system, so I left the main charge as is. I also seen this on some of the ‘Masters’ web pages I had seen, but wasn’t sure of the ethnicity of those armigers, so I didn’t want to jump the gun and played it safe as mentioned above. If it is kosher to place the charge like that then I am absolutely doing it that way as it just bothers the heck out of me to see it like this – a symmetry thing. wink


Quote:

This practice is almost always followed when the shields are shown accolle & respecting—i.e. tilted towards each other—but its not universal. For example, if the shields are both upright AND both helmets are shown facing to dexter, then nothing is reversed—the visual image then shows both arms progressing in the same direction together.


This is great info to know, as I just got an order for a married set of arms from one of the teachers at the school. I will employ this if they want to have respectant arms.