Spanish Grandees

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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25 September 2006 21:52
 

Hi all,

If you haven’t yet seen it, here is a neat webpage on Spanish Grandees:

 

http://grandesp.org.uk/

 

I can’t say whether or not the info given there is accurate, but it is

full of neat images of coats of arms and their blazons.  For example,

if you look at the link for the Dukes of Berwick:

 

http://grandesp.org.uk/historia/gzas/berwick.htm

 

...you can click on the shields on the left hand side and a window will

pop up with the blazon.

 

Enjoy!

 

-Sebastian Nelson

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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26 September 2006 00:13
 

this is nice…i just wish i could speak/read Spanish. thanks for posting.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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26 September 2006 00:32
 

Can anyone explain exactly what a Grandee is? The reason I ask is I get the feeling it is a little more than simply noble. But, maybe I’m wrong.

Also, I wonder why the several notable Hiberno-Hispano Noble families are not listed at all. The Duque de Tetuan, Marquez de Altamira, Conde de Lucena, and Visconde Aliaga (O’Donnell Tirconnell and according to Dr. MacLysaght the next senior line of the O’Donnell Tirconnell chiefs/kings after the line of the current O’Donnell, as certified by Dr. MacLysaght himself, Fr. Aeodh O’Donel, O.F.M., and therefore its real heir) comes to mind right off the bat, as does O’Neill Mor who is the Spanish Marquez de la Granja, Marquez del Norte y de Villaverde de San Isidro, and Conde de Benagair, etc.

 

Sebastian, do you know where one can go to get more info on these fellas? Maybe including their arms like in this nice URL you’ve provided?

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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26 September 2006 00:53
 

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9052/larabordpicod5.gif

On a side note, I think the baskets with the snakes popping out of them of Manrique de Lara are the second coolest heraldic charge I have ever seen.

First is the child-devouring viper of the Viscontis.

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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26 September 2006 00:55
 

Donnchadh wrote:

this is nice…i just wish i could speak/read Spanish. thanks for posting.


You realize that you can click on a link to make some of it display in English, right? (not the blazons, however)

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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26 September 2006 02:19
 

Yeah the part on foreign arms I did…I did not see it anywhere else…did I miss it?

Also I noted that charge in the several Guzman and Pacheco (one I’m familiar with) arms. Cool.

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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26 September 2006 02:22
 

The spanish seem to have very complicated, and busy, arms. Is this just because most of these people are nobility/royalty (as far as I can understand) or is this common of the spanish style? I also notice a LOT of gules/or combos, is this cause it’s the national color (or is this the national flag colors because of this.. probably the latter huh?)

I also notice the spanish like to use borders with a lot of charges in them.. Or am I mistaken?

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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26 September 2006 02:31
 

No you’re right there does seem to be lots of borders with charges. So, on that I agree.

However, I disagree with them being complicated or busy arms. Look closer at each arm including of those that are quartered. In them you will find lots of very simple, basic coats. There are distinct charges (snakes jumping out of cauldrons as Mark noted above or even the two dragon heads swallowing a band - I forget its name right now…), or at least distinct styles of charges (castles).

 

But, this is true of all nations. One can see a very clear difference in the style/depiction of charges, like say a tree. One sees a different style of representation in the forms from Italy and France say with British. Etc. The same for the castles in Spanish vs. those of the British. Etc.

 

So, I think a different style would be accurate and definitely lots of borders with charges, but not complicated…for me anyway.

 
emrys
 
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emrys
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26 September 2006 03:20
 

Donnchadh wrote:

Can anyone explain exactly what a Grandee is? The reason I ask is I get the feeling it is a little more than simply noble. But, maybe I’m wrong.


If I remember correctly you have two sorts of nobles in Spain, Grandee and those who are not, sort of nobles first class (grandee) and second class.

This means that a Duke who is not a grandee is in fact of lower rank than a Baron who is a grandee.wink

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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26 September 2006 03:50
 

emrys wrote:

This means that a Duke who is not a grandee is in fact of lower rank than a Baron who is a grandee.wink


In theory true, but I think all the Spanish Dukes are grandees.  Not sure if it has ever been the case that one was not.

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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26 September 2006 10:41
 

Dear Sir:

Please excuse me, as my english is not the best, but i will try to answer your question. Titled Nobility in Spain is divided into two different categories: Grandees, and the others. "Grandee of Spain" is a special distinction bestowed by the King of Spain upon some people. They have a higher rank. All Dukes are Grandees by law. The other titles can have attached or not this privilege if the monarch wishes it. This really matters in protocol, as a Baron(the lowest rank of titled nobility in Spain) with a grandee outranks a Marquis(title in theory superior in rank). There were in the past three different kinds of grandeeships: Grandee of first, second and third class. Now this has been abolished, and all the grandees hold the same rank. The classification of ranks is as follows:

- Duke(they all are grandees)

- Marquis (they can be grandees or not)

- Count ( they can be grandees or not)

- Viscount (they can be grandees or not)

- Baron (they can be grandees or not)

- Hidalgo: this is plain untitled nobleman (they can be grandees or not)

 

For example, a hidalgo with a grandeeship of Spain would outrank Barons, Viscounts, Counts, and Marquises without a grandeeship.

 

Also, the Grandees hold the privilege of adressing the king as: "dear cousin"

 

If you require further explanations, please do not hesitate to contact me,

 

Yours sincerely,

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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26 September 2006 11:04
 

Montferrato,

First of all your English seems good to me, had you not said anything I probably would have guessed English was your first languedge.

 

Second thanks for the explination It was most informative.

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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26 September 2006 11:27
 

Thanks, you are more than welcome

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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26 September 2006 12:15
 

For those wondering about the term ‘Hidalgo’, most think it comes from hijo de algo, meaning ‘son of something’.  In other words the nontitled son of someone important.

One of the interesting things about the former rankings of grandees is how they were allowed to address the King.  1st class could address the King casually with their hats off, 2nd class could ask a question with their hat on and receive the answer with the hat off, and 3rd class had to keep their hat on unless told to remove it by the King.

 

Gracias Montferrato, espero que usted permanezca en nuestro message board. ¡Y su inglés es ciertamente mejor que mi español!

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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26 September 2006 12:31
 

thank you all. i thought that there was a little something more.

so, this website is not complete then i take it? for, it is missing, at least, the Duque de Tetuan, who by this title as a duke would be a grandee.

 

i really, really do like the site to be sure. i look forward to more info on it. heck…i even bookmarked it.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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26 September 2006 12:55
 

Linusboarder wrote:

The spanish seem to have very complicated, and busy, arms. Is this just because most of these people are nobility/royalty (as far as I can understand) or is this common of the spanish style? I also notice a LOT of gules/or combos, is this cause it’s the national color (or is this the national flag colors because of this.. probably the latter huh?)

I also notice the spanish like to use borders with a lot of charges in them.. Or am I mistaken?


Their arms are really not all that complicated once you understand how they do them. I was just reading about Spanish arms the other day..although I can’t remember where (darned cold medicine! my brains are a bit scrambled). Anyhow, Spanish arms, according to the book I was reading (and assuming that I understood it correctly) are many times pictures of one’s ancestry. The quarters are assigned as follows:

 

dexter chief: paternal grandfather’s arms

sinister chief: Maternal grandfather’s arms

dexter base: paternal grandmother’s arms

sinister base: maternal grandmother’s arms

 

This is kind of like what is called sieze quartiers : bringing in all the CoA’s you’re entitled to by direct descent into one shield. It’s a very interesting system and fairly common in Spain, apparently. This makes the busy and complicated look of many Spanish CoA’s a bit more understandable-you’re looking at an extended genealogical document. And yes, they do use a lot of bordures with multiple charges and also are much more accepting of words and letters on the shield than most other European cultures.

 

As to color-red is the single most used base color in heraldry. Who knows why? Maybe, as with barn painting, red was just the least expensive paint color out there so got used most. I’ve also read that green, strangely, is the least used base color. Go figure.