Spanish Grandees

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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30 September 2006 11:51
 

I’d suspect that you’re right, Michael. I’ve done some limited research into Polish arms lately, and many of their ancient tamga symbols become transformed into horseshoes, etc. probably because nobody really knew what the heck they were anymore (although there’s also speculation that as French heralds were imported into Poland they really freaked when trying to blazon Polish arms by their rules and starting changing things to meet their system). It seems that ancient charges develop into something else when we start forgetting what they are, or find them inconvenient to blazon.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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30 September 2006 12:43
 

Thanks Patrick and Mike. I could see that happening.

As for the fourth quarter they are the arms that allude to being the Admiral of the Seas. When I researched these several months ago I posted some of the same pics that were posted above and a bit of writing about them. It seems he really might not have been entitled to them, but who knows exactly.

 

Of course that’s if I remember correctly, which after a long night out I may not right now… wink

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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30 September 2006 13:01
 

Donnchadh wrote:

Thanks Patrick and Mike. I could see that happening.

As for the fourth quarter they are the arms that allude to being the Admiral of the Seas. When I researched these several months ago I posted some of the same pics that were posted above and a bit of writing about them. It seems he really might not have been entitled to them, but who knows exactly.

 

Of course that’s if I remember correctly, which after a long night out I may not right now… wink

 


No, no, no…those are the arms of Christopher Columbus. I’m talking about the arms of Pedro-Nuno Colon De Portugal y Castro (page 3 of this discussion) who has the Columbus arms in 1st quarter, Portugal 2nd, Castro 3rd but I can’t find the 4th anywhere. And yes, per the actual grant he was given, he (Chris) didn’t deserve most of it. I find it interesting that he could change the colors of the grant to reflect the royal arms but not get into trouble about that. I guess what he was doing in the West Indies was important enough that Spain decided to let it slide.

 
snelson
 
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snelson
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02 October 2006 18:10
 

Quote:

If you scroll up to the top of page 3 in this discussion, you’ll find the arms of Pedro-Nunez Colon de Portugal y Castro. Does anyone know what the arms are depicted in the 4th quarter?

1st quarter is the arms of Christopher Columbus, second Portugal (quite a few of his ancestors appear to be cadets of the Portugese royal family), the 3rd quarter is Castro which he got through his mother. But what is the 4th?


I have no idea whose arms are shown in the 4th quarter.  However, here is a webpage which appears to show some of the ancestors of Pedro-Nuno Colon De Portugal y Castro:

 

http://worldroots.com/brigitte/famous/p/pedro1colonportanc.htm

 

Listed among these names on this page is the surname Giron.  According to the "Diccionario Heraldico y Nobilario de los Reinos de Espana" by Fernando Gonzalez-Doria (Madrid, 1987), the arms of Giron are blazoned "en campo de oro, tres jirones de gules; bordura jaquelada de oro y gules, en tres ordenes."  I’m sure other members of this forum will be able to say with more accuracy if this blazon is similar to the 4th quarter.  Here is a webpage with a Giron coat of arms, and it looks vaguely similar:

 

http://www.personal.us.es/alporu/historia/giron_apellido.htm

 

http://www.personal.us.es/alporu/Images/osuna/giron_escudo.jpg

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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02 October 2006 22:38
 

Ooohhh..thanks. That is substantially similar and gives me a place to continue researching from!

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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05 October 2006 03:16
 

Well, this is indeed the coat of arms of the first Giron, a very funny surname. This guy originated a dynasty, the line of the Dukes of Osuna, and his name was Don Rodrigo Gonzalez, feudal lord of Cisneros. Later he changed the surname Gonzalez for the surname Giron. The three red triangles are the “three girones”. What’s a Giron or Jiron? It is a piece of ragged and broken clothe. Our old friend Giron won the favour of the king by being so brave in battle against the moors that his clothes were broken in pieces due to his ardour in Battle. So, this a good example of how a nickname won in battle originated a totally new surname and a totally new coat of arms.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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05 October 2006 09:13
 

Luis, thank you very much. A fascinating story. I’m finding Spanish heraldry to be a truly intruiging subject.

 
Mark Olivo
 
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05 October 2006 10:51
 

Sorta pursuant to this topic, in researching for my academic heraldry project I came acoss some interesting arms:

http://img307.imageshack.us/img307/3429/santateresabla1ey6.jpg

 

Not sure who or what these belong to, but note the five jellyfish as charges on the left and right portions.

These appear on a convent in Avila, Spain founded by St. Teresa of Avila.  I was in the process of researching St Teresa, as you might imagine, because one of our residential halls is named after her.

 

Her is the link.  Many interesing pics of heraldry on this website but it helps if you can understand Spanish.

 

http://www.fuenterrebollo.com/faqs-numismatica/convento-santa-teresa.html

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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05 October 2006 11:52
 

I wonder if the jellyfish are the mysterious charges on these arms at Mission Concepcion in San Antonio, reported by Hassan in August:

http://forums.heraldrysociety.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=48&d=1156522730

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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05 October 2006 11:59
 

Joe, this is way too funny. I was just thinking that and you beat me to it.  What can I say, "great minds…" wink

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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05 October 2006 13:32
 

Quote:

A fascinating story. I’m finding Spanish heraldry to be a truly intruiging subject.


Patrick I totally agree! smile

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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05 October 2006 13:33
 

Mark THANKS! I L – O – V – E structural heraldry!! smile Nothing says tradition and permanence like structural heraldry especially when it is in stone; I think it is absolutely awesome work on that as well - kudos to the sculptor. THANKS!

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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05 October 2006 13:34
 

Joe and Hassan I agree now that the two are side by side so to speak. I think they are as well. Great spot Joe.

 
Kelisli
 
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05 October 2006 13:56
 

Denny,

Now I am not certain that they are the same.  I went back and looked at a high res picture of mine of the arms on the door to the Mission Concepcion to compare them with the ones Mark Olivo shared with us.  Now I am not sure, the ones Mark has look like the true animal, however the ones at Mission Concepcion, look more like very stylized jellyfish on a triangular shape or charge!  At first I thought they were blades of some sort with blood dripping…I know pretty gruesome, but that’s what they looked like to me.  I wonder if the arrangement in saltire and the similarity in the shapes make them look alike or is it that one carving is better than another.  I send Joe the high res image to get his opinion. Does Fr. Selvester have any insights?

 

Cheers,

Hassan

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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05 October 2006 15:08
 

They both look like jellyfish (scyphozoa) to me.