The Spanish College of Arms is ready

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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17 October 2006 13:32
 

Sí, señor.  Exactamente.

In the Spanish Mass, each of the petitions in the prayer of the faithful typically would end "Rezamos al Señor (we pray to the Lord)," to which the response is "Señor, oye nuestra súplica (Lord, hear our prayer)."  Similarly, a feudal overlord would also be the señor.

 

But if you address someone respectfully without using their name, "Perdóname, señor," that would be "Excuse me, sir," not "Excuse me, lord." 

 

A courteous way of opening a formal letter in Spanish is "Muy Señor mío."  That’s best translated as "Dear sir" or "My dear sir" (even though "muy" doesn’t mean "dear"), not "My Lord."

 

And of course, as Denny says, señor is also the normal word for mister.

 

The same ambiguity applies in translating other languages, too.  The French word "sieur," cognate with the English "sir," referred to the holder of a low-level feudal fiefdom.  But "monsieur" means either "sir" or "mister" depending no whether you’re using the person’s name or not ("Oui, monsieur;" "Non, Monsieur Vernot.")  Same in German with the word Herr, which can be a feudal lord or Herr (Mr.) Greis-Maibach. 

 

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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17 October 2006 14:03
 

So, and I don’t want to put anyone in a bad spot and I certainly don’t imply or mean Mr. Wooten, but given these problems with mistranslation, there really could be people who are intentionally seeking some sort of nobility by default by having words played with like this? I think this is what Luis and Joe are saying and it is certainly what I think could happen, but I just want to make sure.

If so, this is a bad thing IMHO. For me it always comes down to, ‘be who you are’ in everything. If you are born a noble person, be that. If you are born a regular guy, be that. I’m happy being a regular guy in a federal republic. However, if I was born a noble guy in a constitutional monarchy I’d be happy being that too.

 

I’ve always found it rather sad when people dislike themselves so much that they try to make themselves into someone/thing they are not… that is sad really.

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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17 October 2006 14:47
 

Well, i am happy to know that my point was understood. I must thank Joseph McMillan and Denny MacGoff for an explanation in good english, and for their excellent understanding of the spanish word señor. It is easy to play with words.

With respect to the Status of Heraldry in Germany, Ben, i am not an expert. I can tell you that the current status of Heraldry in Spain is no man´s land, or the wild wild west. To certify your rights through a notary does not guarantee total protection, unless you develop historical rights as the time goes by. You can register it as you would register a Trademark or a logo, and protect it by copyright. There are these options. Only those coats of arms considered historic are entitled to full legal protection.

 

By the way, today i had a good conversation with a Spanish Diplomat who is good friend of mine, and member of the Spanish Royal Academy of Law. When i told him that i had seen on the internet coats of arms certified by Floresta, whom he knows personally, he just laughed and said: "It has the same value as if i or you had certified the arms ".

 

We both receive the newsletter of "Hidalguia", the magazine founded by Vicente de Cadenas about nobility in Spain. We will await the news about the appointment of a Cronista.

 
emrys
 
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emrys
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17 October 2006 14:59
 

Living in a monarchy without heraldic regulation (for family arms, noble and civic arms are regulated)  I can say that I am quite happy with this situation, we have an old tradition of assuming arms and this works quite well.

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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17 October 2006 15:15
 

Well, we all are human, and therefore, weak. I am not going to enter into this. I think anyone can do as he wishes, as far as he does not bother others. But there are some forms and conventions that must be respected, and one must not be childish. To put it bluntly: You are noble only if you were born noble, and no coat of arms will confer upon you this condition. Also, in Spain, the condition of being noble is only and exclusively transmitted by male line. So, if your mother is a Duchess and your daddy is not noble, you are not noble. Of course you can inherit the duchy. And you will be no doubt an aristocrat, but not a nobleman. So, there are people with noble titles that are not noble. In fact, in many cases, from a strictly pure and legal point of view, a title of nobility does not give you any nobility. I know it can sound strange, but it is absolutely true. I wish i could have the eloquence of Joseph writing in english, as i could explain much better what i mean. Also, to be knight of a Chivalry order does not give you nobility whatsoever. It can give you social prestige, or the opportunity to play the games you want. But it does not make you noble. This is of course from the point of view of the nobility of blood, which is for me the most important one.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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17 October 2006 16:09
 

From a spectator, two unrelated comments:

First, re: the bet—I would suggest that the wine or whisky (whiskey?  - I can never remember) should be chosen both for quality of the beverage, and for the most interesting & authentic armorial label.  Must keep it on-topic…

 

Second, re: the situation in Spain—IMO there is another option which would reestablish some degree of order without wading into the murky waters of noblesse—merely authorize each provincial chronicler (or authorize each autonomous province to authorize its own chronicler) to register or certify arms of persons/families within their own province—in essence, devolution of heraldic authority.  The authorization could (should) clearly reserve the king’s existing monopoly on noble titles & arms, which would hopefully avoid any undue pretensions at the provincial level.  There would need to be some (hopefully simple) mechanism for sharing registrations to avoid conflicts.

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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17 October 2006 16:24
 

These comments may be unrelated, but they are both excellent.

1. It would be great to create such a system. I totally agree. A corps of qualified cronistas, and provincial or regional registers under some central regulations.

2. Well, why not? i think it is a good idea. I will start choosing the wine.

 

:-D

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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18 October 2006 00:09
 

When I read the title of this thread, my heart nearly jumped from my chest!  I visited the website but almost immediately had the feeling something wasn’t quite right.

For some background of myself, I was in pursuit of a Spanish grant just prior to the previous Chronista’s passing.  My grandfather immigrated to American in 1920.  unfortunately for me, he was a stoe away, landing somewhere in New York and never formally applying for US citizenship (I’ve never been able to locate any of these documnets).  He passed away in 1946 when my father was only 4 and very little is remembered of him.  I worked with a genealogical firm out of England for over a year just to prove that i was of spanish ancestry only to have Don Vincente pass two weeks prior to this (the heart break hear ‘round the world, as I’ve named it). Once I heard that a new Chronista most likely wouldn’t be appointed, I felt all but defeated.  I’ve been in contact with leading members of the heraldic world in England and they are graciously enquiring on my behalf with Spain, and currently believe that a Chronista will eventually be officially appointed.

 

With all of that said (and that is a very brief overview of my long adventure) and if Spain doesn’t appoint a new Chronista, would the services of the SCA be recommended?  Even though my arms are registered with the ACH and USHA, I’d still like to honor my ancestral country of origin in some way.

 

Perhaps I’ll start a new thread with the full story of how I came to choose the achievment that I did and the symbolism behind it all if any are interested in the story…

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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18 October 2006 00:22
 

Failte (welcome) Andrew. And yes I dare say most everyone here, if not all, would be interested in your arms and their history and the reasoning behind creating them. Start the thread. smile

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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18 October 2006 01:13
 

Montferrato wrote:

Very well, Duncan. Let’s agree the terms. If an official Cronista of the Kingdom of Spain is appointed in the following six months, I will send the wine to Duncan. If not, he will send me the whisky.

wink

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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18 October 2006 03:27
 

1. For Andrew Vidal:

If you are in pursuit of certified arms, you have two options at the moment: either you wait for the appointment of a Cronista, or you certify your arms with a serious institution like the SCA, which will execute a notarial act on your behalf. That is up to you. The only thing I know for sure is that they will not trick you.

 

If you are doing genealogical research, and try to have a certified genealogical tree of your ancestors, I would certainly get the services of the SCA. SCA is quite experienced in that, and I can tell you this first hand . The surname Vidal comes from the north.-east of Spain, probably from the South of France, Principality of Catalonia or the Balearic Islands. The origin is Roman-Latin, and comes from the Roman name “Vitalis”or “Vitelius, there are different opinions”. If you have some idea of the name of your ancestors, or some clues, I could give you some orientation.

 

2. For Mark:

 

Hi, Mark: I do not feel inclined to Sherry. I prefer a good Scottish whisky or a good Rioja. I love Rioja too, and one of my favourites is Viña Real, of the “bodegas cune”. Try to get it if you can. The price is good too. I use to drink at least one or two bottles of this wonderful elixir everyfriday with friends, and keeps me alive and healthy¡¡¡¡¡¡

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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18 October 2006 07:15
 

Donnchadh:

I will start the thread as soon as I’m able.  Be warned though, the story is long!

 

Montferrato:

 

The research that I had commisioned previous was able to tell me exactly that which you stated, and my surname did have Arms associated with them in 1389.  Naturally, I can make to claim to these arms as direct lineage couldn’t be established due to the fact that my grandfather appeared on these shores like a phantom and dissappeared in much the same way.  For the record, I meant no offense to any associated with the SCA, I asked mainly because when I was younger I was duped by a "bucket shop" and I still feel the sting of that!  If it’s agreed that they are a reputable organization, than I will pursue them in the near future for a Notorial registration.

 

Perhaps I should offer you a glass of my 18 yr Glenfiddich for your assistance!:D

 
Montferrato
 
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Montferrato
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18 October 2006 08:45
 

Dear Andrew:

O, yes, I would never say no to a good class of “Scottish Juice”. And yes, we would be delighted to hear your story. Please, go on.

:p

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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18 October 2006 15:50
 

I have posted part one of my story on the personal heraldry forum, so not to go off topic on this thread.

 
AVD1
 
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AVD1
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18 October 2006 17:14
 

I am going to play the devil’s advocate here and I have to say I really have the highest respect for any person or institution until proven in contrary.

I really think the issue here is how valid is a private certification right now in Spain?

I am guessing here but, like in most of the democratic countries in the world, in Spain all private acts that a written law does not forbid are reputed valid. It is very important the word “reputed” because it can be proved invalid (i.e. criminal intention, error, etc.) in a court of law.

 

Since there is no appointed authority to issue heraldic certifications in Spain all private registries are equally valid (or invalid). So, Don Alfonso Ceballos-Escalera y Gila, Marques de la Floresta has the same right to issue certifications that any other “persona” in Spain (I am using “persona” in the legal sense because institutions, companies, non profit organizations, etc. are ‘collective personae’ and that condition entitles them some rights) including the SCA (Spanish College of Arms –very anglicized name by the way).

 

A notarial act (I am not sure if the expression exist in English language) or inscription could be done with any of those certifications, in fact Alfonso Ceballos-Escalera is a lawyer and his family has a very large practice in Madrid (I believe) but anyone can do it.

 

I really don’t know if Ceballos-Escalera or any other private registry will ‘trick’ you but that is a risk everybody has to assume with any private registry.

 

So until an Officer (Chronicler) is appointed those interested in certifications will have to apply market laws to choose one or another (price, value, services, post sales services, etc.)

 

Best regards

 

Aurelio