Reagan

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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27 November 2006 18:27
 

The preview of the Reagan arms article for the American Presidents series is now available for review and comment at http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeohzt4/Reagan/reagan.html.  Note that one image, showing the "sept arms" of the O’Regans of Laois and Limerick, is missing, as I have not yet drawn it.

Any suggestions welcome.

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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27 November 2006 19:34
 

Joe,

Good article!  Even the rich and famous can get hornswaggled by bucket-shop operations.

 

I wonder why the star was blazoned "Argent" vice "Gules"; Gules would (a) avoid the "metal on metal" offense, and (b) better represent the red California star.

 

Regards,

—Guy

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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27 November 2006 19:40
 

Joseph McMillan wrote:

The preview of the Reagan arms article for the American Presidents series is now available for review and comment at http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeohzt4/Reagan/reagan.html.  Note that one image, showing the "sept arms" of the O’Regans of Laois and Limerick, is missing, as I have not yet drawn it.

Any suggestions welcome.


Check this sentence: "That fact notwithstanding, a copy of a pedigree prepared for President Reagan in connection with his 1984 managed to muddy the heraldic waters considerably."

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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27 November 2006 19:45
 

Uh, yeah.  Make that "A pedigree prepared by the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland and presented to the President during his 1984 state visit managed to muddy the waters considerably."

Also a dash and a comma or two misplaced.

 
PBlanton
 
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PBlanton
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27 November 2006 20:45
 

Joe,

In the middle of the second paragraph, you have the following sentance:

 

These arms, blazoned as Or a chevron Ermine between three dolphins embowed Azure, have come to be treated as the "sept arms" of the Regans (and Reagans) of Counties Laois and Limerick.

 

Did you mean to write "O’Regans" instead?

 

Other than that, I found the article very enjoyable! smile

 

Take care,

 
 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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27 November 2006 23:37
 

Joseph,

From Dr. Edward MacLysaght’s work, Irish Families; Their Names, Arms and Origins


Quote:

Like most of the widespread Irish surnames O’Regan originated independently in more than one place. As regards origin, the more important of these was Ó Riagáin of Counties Meath and Dublin, one of the Four Tribes of Tara, and very prominent in the wars against the so-called Danes. They were dispersed after the Anglo-Norman invasion and their descendants have largely disappeared except in Co. Leix, to which area they migrated. The other O’Regan sept, Dalcassian in origin, descends from Riagan, nephew of the famous Brian Boru: they were seated in the Limerick area of Thomond. In modern times Regans and O’Regans are found more in County Cork than in Co. Limerick. Fineen MacCarthy, writing in 1595, claims several families of O’Regan, living in Carbery [Co. Cork], as his kinsmen. Keating, Terry and other seventeenth century authorities state that some families in Co. Limerick stem from the Co. Leix O’Regans; and it is a fact that the arms borne by families located in both those areas are the same.


I write this because it is important to note that the “Sept Arms” of the O’Regans of Dublin and Meath, one of the Four Tribes of Tara, belong to those (O) Re(a)gans of Cos. Dublin, Meath and Leix. With some noted exceptions – those few families who migrated to Co. Limerick and who could therefore define their link to the senior branch. This is undoubtedly verifiable for the CHoI as the records of previous Ulsters would show notable families of that area who could prove descent from the Southern Uí Neill (Dublin/Meath) family and therefore to those few.

 

However, the bulk of Co. Limerick (O) Re(a)gans are in fact Dalcassian and in no way entitled to use the “Sept Arms” under Dr. MacLysaghts guidelines.

 

Now Dalcassians are not even the same blood as the Uí Neill, the Dalcassians are of the Érainn tribal grouping (arriving in Ireland ca. 500 to 100 B.C. being the second Celtic people to migrate to Ireland) and the Uí Neills are of the Gael tribal grouping (arriving in Ireland ca. 100 B.C. to 100 A.D being the fourth and final Celtic people to migrate to Ireland). So the Dalcassians are older than the Uí Neills and not of the same tribe at all.

 

I don’t know if that helps with you report or not, but I thought you might like it if for no other reason than a FYI.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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27 November 2006 23:55
 

Donnchadh wrote:

Joseph,

 

I don’t know if that helps with you report or not, but I thought you might like it if for no other reason than a FYI.


I think it does help, thanks.  Frankly, I have always found MacLysaght’s sept arms theory both attractive and problematic at the same time—not to mention confusing.  If I understand correctly what you’re saying, the chances are very much against any Reagans from Co. Tipperary (where Ronald Reagan’s ancestor in the early 1800s lived) being entitled to use the O’Regan arms (Or a chevron ermine etc.) even as sept arms, let alone as their personal arms.  Is that right?

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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28 November 2006 00:12
 

Yep. That is exactly right. MacLysaght and the previous Ulster’s before him (according to MacLysaght and others) had/have great family resources deposited in the archives. This is why the previous Ulster’s could say ‘family X’ from Dublin City is related definitively to ‘family X’ from Cavan, Co. Cavan. Without that there is no real connection (much to the sorrow of the vast majority of Irishmen who’ve invested in bucket shop prints and "lineages," which I think are more of a crime than the arms themselves) unless they reside or are from that area itself.

So, unless the good President’s family can trace themselves back to the few in that area who have a legitimate right to those "sept arms" (which given the articles info I doubt) then he would most certainly not be entitled to them in MacLysaght’s ‘sept arms’ idea (which I also support, but see problems with… like this one…). Of course that is all the more reason it is good he had arms made up for his family IMHO.

 

In fact given that his line comes from Co. Tipperary he may in fact be of a family that is a cadet of the MacCarthys and not even of the Dalcassian (O) Re(a)gans. These are the three different (O) Re(a)gans in Ireland with people still alive in those areas roughly.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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28 November 2006 00:18
 

Yep. That is exactly right. MacLysaght and the previous Ulster’s before him (according to MacLysaght and others) had/have great family resources deposited in the archives. This is why the previous Ulster’s could say ‘family X’ from Dublin City is related definitively from ‘family X’ from Cavan, Co. Cavan. Without that there is no real connection (much to the sorrow of the vast majority of Irishmen who’ve invested in bucket shop prints and "lineages," which I think are more of a crime than the arms themselves.

So, unless the good President’s family can trace themselves back to the few in that area who have a legitimate right to those "sept arms" (which given the articles info I doubt) then he would most certainly not be entitled to them in MacLysaght’s ‘sept arms’ idea (which I also support, but see problems with… like this one…). Of course that is all the more reason it is good he had arms made up for his family IMHO.

 

In fact given that his line comes from Co. Tipperary he may in fact be of a family that is a cadet of the MacCarthys and not even of the Dalcassian (O) Re(a)gans. These are the three different (O) Re(a)gans in Ireland with people still alive in those areas roughly.

 
DRShorey
 
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DRShorey
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28 November 2006 13:35
 

Great Article! I am very curious about the significance of the falcon and crown. I noticed there was nothing mentioned about this in the article. Any ideas?

Dave

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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28 November 2006 14:08
 

Very nicely done Joe!  Informative and insightful.  I find it encouraging that a US President assumed Arms in the American fashion, it almost gives the feel of Federal approval to do so!

 
David Boven
 
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David Boven
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28 November 2006 16:27
 

I read through it on my lunch break and I think it looks good, Joe. I, too, like the way that you played up the American-ness of the final assumption. It is good to make note of the fact that the assumed arms of President Reagan are no less legitimate than the granted arms of Presidents Clinton and Kennedy. Well done.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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30 November 2006 21:16
 

Great article, as always.

I thought it was curious that although the Reagans were informed that they weren’t entitled to the O’Regan arms and went to the trouble and expense of having new arms created, that the O’Regan arms are apparently still on the gate of the family ranch.

 

Are there any documented uses of the newer arms—bookplates, china ???

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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01 December 2006 09:25
 

arriano wrote:

Great article, as always.

I thought it was curious that although the Reagans were informed that they weren’t entitled to the O’Regan arms and went to the trouble and expense of having new arms created, that the O’Regan arms are apparently still on the gate of the family ranch.

 

Are there any documented uses of the newer arms—bookplates, china ???


Not that I’ve discovered.  As I recall, someone in the heraldophile community (don’t remember who—maybe Ed Wenzl?  Ed?) inquired with the Reagan Presidential Library as to whether they had anything in their collections on this subject and was told that all the pre-White House personal correspondence was still held by the family.  In writing the article, I thought about trying to contact Mrs. Reagan, but eventually decided not to trouble her over the matter.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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01 December 2006 09:40
 

Denny,

I’m trying to edit the Reagan piece in the few hours I have available before I leave on a business trip for the next week.  How would you like to be credited in the acknowledgements?  Donnchadh Mac[spelling?], Dennis McGoff [spelling], or what?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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01 December 2006 11:05
 

Denny,

One more question, just to make sure: are the arms mentioned in the article (Or a chev. erm. betw. 3 dolphins emb. az.) ascribed by MacLysaght to the O’Regans of Meath, or to those farther south? It strikes me that if it is true that the Laois and Limerick Regans are connected to each other (as the one reference mentioned by MacL. says), any Regans living in between those two counties in Tipperary might be connected as well.