Crom-bhgs

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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13 January 2007 09:18
 

Yes, it is a violation of tincture and yes, another scheme might be more pleasing, but as these are existing arms, not proposed ones, those complaints are moot. Just try getting someone who already has arms to change them. And as these are New Zealand arms, they would most probably have been granted by the English College of Arms, and therefore, blemishes and all, may have that seal of approval.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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13 January 2007 10:38
 

Several things about the arms make me skeptical that this is a College of Arms grant.  First is the tincture violation; second is the barred helmet for someone who is evidently not a peer; third is the use of the Italo-Hispanic-style coronet of a marquess; fourth is the statement about permission from the (Orthodox) Episcope (Greek for bishop) of Australia and New Zealand.

The New Zealand legal scholar Noel Cox has argued that the English law of arms prevails in the dominions, under which theory it would be unlawful for a New Zealander to bear arms without approval of the College of Arms, but I gather that the law officers in the various dominions do not necessarily share Mr. Cox’s view.  So I wouldn’t contend at all that there’s any problem with Mr. Naikan bearing these arms in New Zealand, but I do wonder about the role of the Orthodox bishop in their "rendering."  Maybe Nenad can clarify for us.

 
Nenad Jovanovich
 
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Nenad Jovanovich
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13 January 2007 11:02
 

No, it’s not granted by the College of Arms. It was registered by the Westphian Heraldic Society, and certified in Spain by the Marquis de la Floresta.

The phoenix Purpure is no violation of tincture since the Purpure can act both as a tincture and metal.

 

The arms are rendered in accordance with Serbian heraldic tradition, and (as elswhere in continental European heraldic practice) the hel coronet does not imply any Noble rank.

 

However, the bars on the helm are not Or, so is fitting for an Armiger with no Noble title accordin to our heraldic standards.

 

As for the blessing of the Church: Mr Raman is RC, and our Board is a part of the Centre foe Research of Orthodox Monarchism, therefore we have obtained the official blessing and approval for this work by the Serbian Othodox Church Episcope which has the jurisdiction over New Zealand.

 
Nenad Jovanovich
 
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Nenad Jovanovich
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13 January 2007 11:09
 

You can see the English blazon here at the bottom of the page: http://www.czipm.org/raman.html

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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13 January 2007 11:40
 

Strangely, there is a New Zealand Herald of Arms Extraordinary appointed in 1978 whose duties include liaising with the College of Arms on all things heraldic in New Zealand. Here’s a link to the webpage:

http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/honours/overview/herald-of-arms.html

 

This would indicate that the British government does indeed consider that armorial matters in NZ fall under the College of Arms. But whether the courts of competent jurisdiction in NZ enforce that is quite another matter.

 

I never knew that Purpure was also considered a metal. How strange. What metal is it supposed to signify? Copper?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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13 January 2007 12:24
 

Patrick Williams wrote:

Strangely, there is a New Zealand Herald of Arms Extraordinary appointed in 1978 whose duties include liaising with the College of Arms on all things heraldic in New Zealand. Here’s a link to the webpage:

http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/honours/overview/herald-of-arms.html

 

This would indicate that the British government does indeed consider that armorial matters in NZ fall under the College of Arms. But whether the courts of competent jurisdiction in NZ enforce that is quite another matter.


Two different issues:  whether the College of Arms can grant arms to New Zealanders, and whether it’s illegal for New Zealanders to bear arms without a grant.

 

There’s no doubt that the College can grant arms to New Zealanders, but some English heraldists, as well as Mr. Cox, seem to maintain that it’s contrary to the law of arms for New Zealanders to bear arms without such a grant (and that violations of this restriction would be justiciable in the English Court of Chivalry).  I don’t buy this, and doubt that, if push came to shove, the New Zealand authorities would, either.


Quote:

I never knew that Purpure was also considered a metal. How strange.


Yes, indeed.  It is a full-fledged color in British heraldry, and I would have thought in Spanish heraldry as well.  Possibly it is "amphibious" in the Serbian tradition; it would be interesting to know more.

 

As to the cronista certification, I thought that Spanish law allowed the cronistas to certify arms to persons living in areas formerly under the dominion of the Spanish crown.  That wouldn’t seem to include NZ, unless the logic is based on the Treaty of Tordesillas giving Spain the right to all then-unclaimed territories in the Pacific.  But of course Sr. de la Floresta doesn’t seem to let his lack of a valid cronista’s commission stop him from certifying arms within Spain, so perhaps he doesn’t concern himself with issues of jurisdiction outside Spain, either.

 
AVD1
 
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AVD1
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13 January 2007 13:09
 

Joseph

I can say that purple is:

1.- Very rare in Spanish heraldry

2.- Yes some authors consider purple a hybrid (some consider sable to be a hybrid too color-metal).

3. Several times the Spanish monarchy has recognized limits to the Tordesillas Treaty - i.e. Peace of Paris (Paris of 1763)

 

 

Anyway, several times in this forum it has been established the private nature of those certifications.

 

I cannot comment about the rank crown or other elements of the CoA witout reading the certification.

 
Nenad Jovanovich
 
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Nenad Jovanovich
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13 January 2007 13:41
 

Maybe the Registration with the Hraldische Gemeinschaft Westfalen could be of help here:

http://www.datapage.de/de/design1_outd.html?fenr=234&id=2475&fs=&fnr=&suchf=&ti=&nr=&id=2475&sid=&suche=&li=10

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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13 January 2007 13:44
 

*edited by member*

 
Nenad Jovanovich
 
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Nenad Jovanovich
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13 January 2007 13:51
 

In our Certificate he’s styled as Knight, as Nobility has been abolished long time ago in Serbia (unfortunately).

But, you’ll notice that hes not styled a Baron by the Westphalians either - it’s rather a part of his personal name there…

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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13 January 2007 15:25
 

*edited by member*

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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13 January 2007 16:18
 

Nenad Jovanovich wrote:

The phoenix Purpure is no violation of tincture since the Purpure can act both as a tincture and metal.


Is this correct?  I’ve never heard it before.  Exactly what metal would be represented by purpure—- and "gun blued" steel or tarnished silver don’t count.

 

:confused:

 

—Guy

 
MohamedHossam
 
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MohamedHossam
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13 January 2007 16:35
 

Hmm…in medieval Europe, were gemstones ever counted as precious "metals"??

I know in old arabic texts that diamonds are counted as precious metals, and vice versa, gold, silver, ivory, pearl, and coral are counted as "Al Ahgar al Karima" literally: The Noble Stones.

 

I think this would explain a lot!

 
Nenad Jovanovich
 
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Nenad Jovanovich
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13 January 2007 17:13
 

Guy Power wrote:

Is this correct?  I’ve never heard it before.  Exactly what metal would be represented by purpure—- and "gun blued" steel or tarnished silver don’t count.

:confused:

 

—Guy


How about quicksilver?

 
emrys
 
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emrys
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13 January 2007 19:13
 

In Dutch heraldry purpure is not regarded as a colour or a metal so it can be used on a metal field or a coloured field