Heraldic Standards

 
David Boven
 
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David Boven
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22 July 2006 23:21
 

Friends,

I had a question about the book Heraldic Standards and other Ensigns. This book was published in 1959 by Robert Gayre of Gayre and Nigg and, from what I understand, is one of the few sources that deals in depth with heraldic flags. Beth recently let me get a copy of it at a used book store. The tone of the book seems quite "snooty" to me. Col. Gayre likes to drop names and talk about how certain flags are only allowed to be used by certain classes (of which he is invariably a member somehow). I’ve never read any other of his books and wondered if others had thoughts on this facet of his writing style. I seem to remember that he also published an "Armorial Who’s Who," which would lead me to believe that the snootiness continued. Thanks.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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23 July 2006 22:40
 

He was one of the biggest phonies in history and he also perpetuated the notion that heraldry was only for a certain "class" of people. He created an entire Scottish clan (the clan Gayre) of which he was, of course, the chief. This was a good trick since he was a Cornishman. To call the tone of his writings "snooty" is putting it mildly in my opinion. The better part of his adult life was spent trying to discredit other orders of chivalry he considered "bogus" and defending the order of St. Lazarus which had been declared "bogus" by others. He was behind the efforts to establish the ICOC specifically for the purpose of declaring the Order of St. Lazarus to be genuine. This is why even to this day its declarations are not definitive (it is a private association) and are even somewhat suspect.

Gayre’s same attitude (of excluding others in defense of his own notions) made their way into his heraldic writings as well. I own several of his books. They are all written in a condescending and pejorative style.

 

He died in 1996.

 
James Dempster
 
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James Dempster
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24 July 2006 01:33
 

I would say that Fr Guy has it spot on. I have all four of Gayre’s major books and the only one that is referred to regularly is the two volume "Roll of Scottish Arms" which is a transcription of the personal arms in volume 1 of the Lyon Register. It has most facts and least opinion. That’s not to say that Gayre didn’t do a great deal of research it’s rather that he suffered from the need to lay down the law. This is a bad habit which seems to be a occupational hazard amongst heraldic writers. Fox-Davies is another who does this. Rather than describe messy reality they tend to create rules for how they would like things to be and present them as fact rather than opinion.

Gayre seems to have suffered a severe case of Ordenshunger and seemed to work very closely with Lord Lyon Innes of Learney, though in a recent conversation there was considerable speculation as to whether Learney found him a bit of a pest or a useful tool for converting his (Learney’s) theories into formal judgements.

 

James

 
David Boven
 
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David Boven
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24 July 2006 10:47
 

Thanks Gents,

It’s nice to know that it’s not just me. I seem to recall a friend telling me once that Gayre filed suit against John Brooke-Little and the Heraldry Society because there was an editorial in the "Coat of Arms" that mentioned the Order of St Lazarus as a "bogus order." I guess Gayre raised such a ruccus that the editorial staff withdrew the comment and formally apologized. Oh well…I’ll just read anything of his with a big grain of salt.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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28 January 2007 17:25
 

I would recommend the booklet "Medieval Flags" by Colin Campbell to you for additional unbiased information. This booklet of 33 pages was published by the Heraldry Society of Scotland and may still be available from the society.

 
Nicolas Vernot
 
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Nicolas Vernot
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29 January 2007 07:05
 

"Medieval flags" by Colin Campbell is an excellent study made from reliable sources. I would advise it too, with only one (little) regret : pictures are only in black and white.

Nicolas

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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29 January 2007 12:01
 

Gayre’s writings are IMO useful in two regards—he does survey a wide variety of practices in a number of times & places, though one suspects with some agenda-driven selectivity; and it is useful to know a bit about his particular school of thought, even if you don’t share it.  In neither case should one rely on Gayre’s opinions exclusively (but then that’s generally true of any ariter who cares enough about his subject to have formed opinions—ourselves, or myself anyway, included).  However, if you’re interested in a particular topic that he has written about, you haven’t really done your research if you’ve overlooked or blanket-excluded him form your reading, and you certainly won’t be as prepared as you ought to be, to defend your own thesis (findings & conclusions) if you can’t objectively address his views where they differ from your own..

I wouldn’t, however, highly recommend him to newbies who have nothing to compare him to —his works aren’t IMO primers.  We have enough trouble re-educating those who have drunk too deeply at the well of Fox-Davies…

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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29 January 2007 15:04
 

Michael F. McCartney wrote:

I wouldn’t, however, highly recommend him to newbies who have nothing to compare him to —his works aren’t IMO primers.  We have enough trouble re-educating those who have drunk too deeply at the well of Fox-Davies…


I don’t know Fox-Davies, could you explain the need to avoid their Kool-aid?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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29 January 2007 15:27
 

Linusboarder wrote:

I don’t know Fox-Davies, could you explain the need to avoid their Kool-aid?


"His," not "their."

 

Arthur Charles Fox-Davies (1871-1928 ) was a very prominent and influential British writer on heraldry in the early 20th century. There’s a fairly good Wikipedia entry on him at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Charles_Fox-Davies. Parts of his work are superb, but parts of it don’t bear up to critical scrutiny. Nevertheless, it is widely accepted as gospel within much of the English and Anglophile heraldic community.

 

James Dempster’s comment on ACF-D’s Complete Guide to Heraldry in the annotated bibliography that’s awaiting uploading to our site (!) sums it up nicely:


Quote:

Fox-Davies was a heraldic writer who, without any official sanction, tended to state as fact that which he would have liked to be so and to turn practices of which he approved into rules, when no such rules actually existed. Approach with caution.

 

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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29 January 2007 16:16
 

"Fox-Davies was a heraldic writer who, without any official sanction, tended to state as fact that which he would have liked to be so and to turn practices of which he approved into rules, when no such rules actually existed. Approach with caution. "

...which of course WE would never do!  (Well, at least we’d hopefully be a bit sheepish about it…)

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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29 January 2007 17:35
 

Thank you, that is good to keep in mind when i come across him.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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29 January 2007 19:21
 

In all fairness to Mr. Gayre, it should be noted that prior to his research, there were no books dedicated solely to heraldic flags and heraldic cadency. In my own opinion, his best overall book is the one in which he writes the least, that book being the rarely available 1956 tome, The Heraldry of the Knights of St. John which was published in India on a seemingly 18th century press using excellent quality laid paper.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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04 February 2007 20:26
 

"Medieval Flags" by Colin Campbell is still available for 6 GBP, see the link below for more information:

http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/medflags.html