Tough Decision

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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02 February 2007 08:32
 

I’m going to turn to the members here for some direction and advice.  There’s a possibility that a good friend of mine abroad may be able to help me with securing a grant of arms from a foreign authority.  The dilema I’m now facing is that of the design of my arms.  My arms, aparently, are a little too close to some others, and the fact that they’re quartered is an issue.  The only (snowballs chance) way I can see a way around that is to have arms for my father and mother registered, each with a repective quarter of my own arms allowing me to use them quartered.  Now I have no idea whether that would hold up but it’s worth a shot.

I was told a little while ago by another friend abroad that a herald is like a government employee with a pen, if they can change it they will.  My real issue is I like my arms just the way they are.  I quartered them for the specific reason that i want clear separation of the field.  I certainly don’t want to have two coats of arms as that defeats the purpose entirely.

 

What do the other members here think?  I’m leaning towards hearing the proposals but politely rejecting them all the same.  Any input I get is deeply appreciated.

 
DJensen
 
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DJensen
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02 February 2007 09:17
 

Rotate the quarterly part 45 degrees, and do a division per saltire?

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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Stephen R. Hickman
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02 February 2007 09:22
 

Given that you’re an American, having your arms granted by a foreign authority would look nice on a wall, but would serve the exact same purpose as having them regstered here in the United States.  If you haven’t already done so, then I reccomend the U.S. Heraldic Registry.  Our own Michael Swanson runs it, and I’m sure that he’ll let you keep your quarterings and most everything else in your arms that make them, well, yours.  Plus, registrations are free.  I don’t think that you could get them granted for less than $1,000, let alone for free!  Of course, you probably know all of this, but this way you can see my point, which is that you don’t neccessarily have to go to a foreign authority and spend thousands of dollars for one piece of paper when another piece of paper costs less than $50, including S&H, and carries the same legal weight.

However, if you do wish to have them granted, then I say go for it!  Just because I wouldn’t neccessarily seek a grant doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t!

 

Just one favor:  Please let us know what you decide and keep us up-to-date as to how it goes.  (O.K., that was two favors.  wink)

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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02 February 2007 09:39
 

Please try to restrain yourself from adopting quarterly arms, even by going through the fiction of parental grants.  (Depending on the jurisdiction, doing separate grants to your father and mother will double the probably ridiculous fee that you’ll be charged.)

If you must have quarters, you can pull them together into a "single" field that most foreign heralds will find acceptable by rotating them 45 degrees, as suggested, or by superimposing a unifying charge (a chief, fess, cross, or pale over all), or by making one or both of the palewise and fesswise lines of the "per cross" indented, engrailed, invected, wavy, nebuly, etc.

 

How free the foreign herald feels to alter your preferred design depends on the jurisdiction.  In places where you’re technically doing a registration instead of a grant (South Africa), my impression is that the heralds will allow you what you want as long as it isn’t duplicative (or too close to existing arms) and doesn’t break any heraldic rules.  I think David Pritchard registered his arms in South Africa, so he may be able to say more.

 

On the other hand, I have heard of cases in England (not recent cases, I don’t think) in which the king of arms has granted totally different arms from what the petitioner asked for, apparently just because he could.  (And, if I’m not mistaken, in England you pay up front, not after you see the draft design.)

 

I’d suggest taking a look at our pages on foreign arms registrations for Americans http://www.heraldrysociety.us/ForeignRegistration/ and the almost-ready-for-uploading page on American arms registries http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeohzt4/usregister.html before proceeding.

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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02 February 2007 10:14
 

Thanks for the input so far!  I’ll propose the alternate divisions and see where I get with that.

Stephen:  I registered my arms with the USHR in October of last year, after reading about it here.  I still have to send out for the registration document tho, I’m thinking of having a collage (sp) put together of my ACH Registration, USHR and Armorial Charter all in one frame.  I totally agree with what you’ve stated also, there is no greater legal protection with a Grant/Registration of a foreign power than there is with our US institutions.  For me this has been an ongoing project that I’ve been working on for the last three or four years now.  I’d hate to just end it and walk away empty handed, but I’m loathe to change my arms so drastically that they don’t resemble mine anymore.

 

Joe:  I’d all but have to start a telethon to pay for parental grants on top of my own!  I’ve looked into the Sout African option, and they didn’t say anything about the configuration of my arms, they sent me the application and price list.  The value of the US Dollar vs. the Rand is quite substantial, so the prices aren’t that unreasonable, btw.  I like that idea of the palewise and fesswise, I’ll see if I can wiggle that in there.  Too late to restrain from quartered arms tho!  I remember in another thread Denny said that the ACH didnt want to register quartered arms for him, but the didnt say a word to me when I submitted my application.  I guess since I’m not violating the rules of field division, it was left as a matter of personal choice.

 

If the opinion of the society is the chang the blazon to per cross indented, I’ll see if I can change the registrations that I already have.  Since blazoning isn’t my stron suit (yet), can someone lay it out for me?  (I’d like to stay as true to form as I can with what I already have)

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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02 February 2007 11:32
 

Well, as for me, if these arms speak to you I’d leave well enough alone.

One, there’s no reason you have to have them registered, let alone granted, by a foreign nation.

 

Two, I vaguely remember the reason behind the quarter and while I don’t think that quartering is a good idea usually, I did not hear or read anything in your explanation as to an idea of ‘nobilizing’ your arms by the use of quartering. So, for me this in addition to your very good personal reasons renders the usually very good reasons for not quartering impotent.

 

Of course if you want to change them then go ahead. smile

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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02 February 2007 11:51
 

Naturally I’m on the fence and leaning toward leaving well enough alone, and I have seen other ACH Registration that are quartered arms.  Actually in this last installment of the newsletter my amrs and one other were quartered and there wasn’t mention of nobilizing either.

Maybe I’d use the palewise and fesswise for the foreign, if I even go for it.  I don’t know what the final charge for this would be and i already feel that my arms are on the same playing field as officially granted arms (thanks to my continuing heraldic education here).

 

I am curious as to what the other members think tho, should I leave them as is or apply some of the suggestions listed above to avoid the quartering quagmire (sp)?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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02 February 2007 12:00
 

The problem with quartering isn’t that it is "nobilizing" but that it implies a chain of armigerous ancestors who weren’t really armigerous.  This is the reason why the Danish heraldic authorities rejected President Eisenhower’s first proposed arms (although I’m sure they shuddered at the ugliness of the design quite apart from the issue of quartering).

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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02 February 2007 12:16
 

Andrew:

Because you’ve asked our opinions, I’ll share mine.

 

Because foreign grants/registrations/what-have-you hold no legal place in the US, then they are just ‘pretty artwork on parchment’. If that’s what you want, then by all means go for it. Any change that this foreign authority imposes on your work is only official in that jurisdiction. So just because your arms are changed for that grant does not mean the the arms you registered with USHR become invalid. It merely means that you now have two Coats of Arms: one to use in that country and one to use in the USA.

 
MohamedHossam
 
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MohamedHossam
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02 February 2007 12:24
 

I agree with the other members’ sentiments. Leave them as is, and record them with the US Heraldic Registery.

BTW-I submitted the form on their site close to two months ago and have yet to hear from them. So if anyone knows what’s going on….

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

PS-Happy Groundhog’s Day!

 

Cheers,

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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02 February 2007 13:41
 

Thank you all for your input, I think I’ve pretty much made up my mind and you’ve helped solidify the answer.  I will not be re-registering my arms here to match any foreign grant/registration.  If, and that’s a gigantic if, I do proceed with this, I’ll push for some of the options that Joe had suggested, keeping the arms as close to original as possible.  I figure that since I’m not in violation of any direct heraldic rule, there’s no need to change.  If I’m wrong on that, please let me know and I’ll begin to take corrective action.

 
Hall/Perdue
 
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Hall/Perdue
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02 February 2007 19:43
 

Mr. Vidal,

A few weeks ago you took elements from your arms to design the badge.  To be honest, I really love your badge, but I am indifferent about your arms.  Why not do the reverse and redesign your arms using your badge as a reference.

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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02 February 2007 21:03
 

Eric (if I may)-  Please, call me Andrew!  I appreciate your honesty and applaud you for speaking your true feelings.  I agree with you, the version of my arms that I have in my public profile leaves much to be desired.  If I had a scanner or a digital camera that was worth what I paid for it, I’d love to display the painting that a very dear friend of mine did for me.  As I was feeling torn about this whole thing, all I had to do to steel myself was look at it.  The painting is done with gauche and is all hand drawn and just breathes life.  The alternate colors and flowing pattern of the mantle along with his rendition of the talbot really do the blazon justice.  Hopefully I’ll be able to have Chap do a rendition of my arms that will do them justice digitally and I’ll be able to change your mind.  Chap is the artist who did my badge, so if you like that you’ll love the arms as well.  I have a comission out now with another artists, and hopefully I’ll be able to post that here when it’s completed.

 
PBlanton
 
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PBlanton
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02 February 2007 21:21
 

Andrew,

Since you’ve already registered your arms with the ACH and the USHR, I wouldn’t alter the arms at all. If a foreign authority wants to grant you different arms, then so be it, but don’t change your American assumed and registered arms because a foreign authority decided you shouldn’t have them.

 

Take care,

 
 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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02 February 2007 21:34
 

Philip - I agree.  If I accept the changes and and proceed with the grant/registration I may just use those in over seas communication, if at all.  One of the leading factors here will be cost.  As far as I can tell, I’ve followed all the best practices.  I may be pushing the envelope with quartering, but aren’t all Americans a little edgy?;)

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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03 February 2007 01:07
 

MohamedHossam wrote:

I agree with the other members’ sentiments. Leave them as is, and record them with the US Heraldic Registery.

BTW-I submitted the form on their site close to two months ago and have yet to hear from them. So if anyone knows what’s going on….

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

PS-Happy Groundhog’s Day!

 

Cheers,

 


The US Heraldic Registry received over 192 applications in December and January.  That does not include the artwork requested.

 

I am making my way through all the requests now.  I also had other business not related to heraldry to attend to.

 

I have found that many applicants change their designs within a few weeks of registration, and after registration.  So the slow down in responding/registering is a result of the huge number of registrations and also the wait for designs to settle down.

 

If registration was free, but revisions cost $1000 (i.e., I took a credit card number on the first submission), then I bet people would refrigerate-test their designs a lot longer!