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How about a heart pierced by swords? I think the Catholic laymen would recognize that immediately as a reference to Mary.
I would shy away from the 16 pointed star too. If I looked at a star like that, I might mistake it for a sun in splendor. But that’s just me!:D
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How abou the monogram AM for Ave Maria? I have often seen it on Spanish civic heraldry. Also, lillies are often used as a symbol of Our Lady Mary (btw Muslims refer to her in the same way, "Sittena Mariam", or "Elsayeda Mariam").
Also, I recall reading something about the symbol of a vase as a symbol of the Immaculate Concepcion.
BTW, I defenitely love the Italian horse-head-armor type shield for the Parish arms. Tres chic!
Regards,
You have more patience than I do, I would’ve walked long ago!
Are there any flowers associated with Mary? I know roses are associated with St. Theresa, maybe Lilies? Short of having a big "M", I’m out of ideas!
Mohamed beat me to it, but the time I originally posted he already mentioned lilies! Gotta get my fingers working faster.
Maybe a more 18th century artsy shield would make them a little happier?
Also a little quick research associates the fleur-de-lis with the Virgin Mary, but honestly when i see fleur-de-lis i think france and french stuff, not the Virgin Mary
Maybe replace the sword on your argent arms with a fleur-de-lis? (even though i don’t know how much more obvious it can get than the heart pierced sword…) If this doesn’t work try…
Argent, "VIRGIN MARY" azure;)
I hope one of our ecclesiastical heraldry experts has some better advice for you…
Donnchadh wrote:
hi all. i have just been informed that my designs for my parish and school have been rejected because the symbol ofr Mary does not speak of Mary clearly enough for the uninformed.
But the symbol does speak "pro multis"!!!!
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[Explanation of the above inside "joke": During the Consecration in the older Latin Mass, the priest recites the words Pro multis which in Latin means "for many"—these words have been mistranslated into English as "for all" since the 1960s. Pope Benedict XVI has recently ruled that the correct translation of the Latin—for many—be used in English when the next translation comes out .... but liberals are still fighting it.]
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I’ll bet Denny has to attend a "for all" church.
Anyway, Denny—the answer to your problem (also for "pro multis") is to properly catechise the people—but it looks like they’d fight to the end and you’d just be wasting your time & energy.
SO ..... Let’s be Solomon and split the baby: Offer them the monogram "M" [remind them the late Pope JP2 used it to symbolize his dedication to the Virgin Mary)—with your seven-pointed star above the M; similar to what Fr. Guy emblazoned here:
http://forums.heraldrysociety.us/showpost.php?p=39928&postcount=1
These parishoners sound like they’re stuck in a 1960s time-warp: "Peace-Love-Dove." When they complain about your artwork being too "militaristic" .... ask them if they have never heard of the "Church Militant"??
Regards,
—Guy
I agree, Guy, the initial ‘M’ would serve quite well, has historical provenance and I can’t imagine anyone NOT understanding it. Of course, I also can’t imagine that Denny’s original designs would be rejected ... so take my comments for what they’re worth.
What about a pot full of lilies? It is used as the arms of the city of Dundee in Scotland. Azure a pot of lilies growing Argent
Of course by the sounds of things it might be best just to place the BVM on there herself (I think that more heraldic than the letter M). She has appeared on heraldry before as these Scottish arms attest:
Lauderdale Community Council (regrant of the Royal Burgh of Lauder arms)Or the Blessed Virgin standing and holding the Holy Child all proper
Melrose Community Council (regrant of the Royal Burgh of Melrose arms)Azure; issuing from a representation of the wall of Melrose Abbey in base proper, door gules, between two pinnacles a gothic canopy, therein seated the Virgin Mary and Holy Child, also, proper; in dexter chief a mell and in sinister chief a rose argent
James
I dunno, James - it seems to me that anything that ‘alludes’ to or ‘symbolizes’ the BVM is going to be too much for these guys. Perhaps an image of the BVM and child in the sinister chief (replacing the star) would do it, although it would really be cranmped there and is pretty close to other existing arms, IIRC.
Hey, Denny: to cross-post a little, the next time you talk to them use my line! If they say the arms are ‘too militaristic’ ask, "Aren’t we all soldiers in the army of Christ?" That might make them think for a minute.
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Donnchadh wrote:
Mohamed, my old friend M’Hammed once told me that Muslims held the BVM in high regard. He never said why or how.
The Koran teaches that Jesus (in Arabic known as ‘Isa) was a prophet, miraculously born of a virgin by the will of God, but that he was nevertheless only human, not the Son of God.
There is even a chapter (sura) in the Koran called "Mary" that contains the Islamic version of the birth of John the Baptist (also considered a prophet, in Arabic Yahya), the Annunciation, and the Nativity.
(And you’re right, this gets rather far afield from heraldry.)
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Donnchadh wrote:
Thank you all.
James, I’ve seen images of her before, but isn’t that sort of like a no-no to use a real person? I know it can be done and has been done. But, isn’t it considered bad form to draw the person instead of a symbol for the person? I am probably wrong, but I just assumed, dangerous I know, that this was the case. A pot of lilies is a nice idea, but how do I translate that into "Assumption"? I, as does Father Peter, want this to illustrate the name of the parish - Assumption. Which is why I thought that a star above the cross and mountains in base was perfect…I guess not though.
I hadn’t picked up on the importance of specifically referring to the Assumption but on that basis I like your idea of a fleur-de-lys within the horns of a crescent.
On the more general point, as a lapsed Presbyterian I can’t comment on whether it is good form in Catholic church heraldry, but certainly I’ve grown up in Scotland surrounded by the heraldic use of the figures of actual saints, especially in civic heraldry.
I’ve got a list of their use in civic heraldry before the major local governmental changes in 1975 and there were eight burghs that used images of the Virgin and Child in their coat of arms (plus Dundee with the pot of lilies and Inverbervie with a rose). At least five of these were continuations of pre-reformation seals.
My old university also had a reference to the Virgin in its arms (though few students or staff knew that King’s College was founded as St Mary’s College) and that this was reflected in the 1st quarter along with what I take to be a reference to the Trinity the origins for which I’m not sure of.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c317/Talksinsentences/Misc Heraldry/AberdeenUniversityArms.jpg
The rendition shown is a modern one with the crest and supporters granted for the quincentenary in 1995.
The blazon of the first quarter is Azure a boughpot Or charged with three salmon in fret, and containing as many lilies of the garden, the dexter in bud, the centre full blown, and the sinister half blown, all Proper, flowered Argent, issuant downwards from the middle chief amid rays of the sun a dexter hand holding an open book, likewise Proper
James
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