Donnchadh wrote:
...which one speaks more obviously of the BVM? (i’m going to bring some of my art books to them to show the crescent in a number of the great paintings of the Assumption, so you can’t get more "obvious" about the Assumption than that (unless you’re on a mission to complain about everything, which i think some of them are).
Denny,
My preference would be a fleur-de-lis as it looks better (to me) heraldicaly speaking. Second choice would be the lilly of the garden.
I don’t much care for the rose in this instance (reminds me of War of Roses connection).
And while I like the original seven-pointed star as a stand-alone charge, I think if it is used within the horns of crescent it would be misidentified as an Islamic symbol. ESPECIALLY by your misinformed, aging hippy, congregation who don’t know squat about tradition. (More power to the good Father—and encourage him to please face liturgical east) —that said just annoy those recalcitrant hippies. 
Regards,
—Guy
Still think they won’t be happy without some thing like this on the shield, but for the virgin mary. It seems that these people forget what symbolism (and gift and generosity, among others) actually means. It’s one thing to be a pacifist and against the war (which I am coincidentally) but it’s another thing to try to completely get rid of that history and tradition just because you are a pacifist.
Anyways, I think some of the people here have given you great ideas, if they can’t get it from that, then i seriously think you should walk in and show them "Argent, ‘Virgin Mary’ azure" and say " this is the only symbolism you people seem to understand.
To get back to your question, I like the fleur de-lis personally.
I still like the originals, but there you go. If your parish council balks at the symbols you’ve given them, they’re likely to balk at anything less than a graphic representation of the BVM. While you are invested in a symbol that says ‘assumption’, they do not seem to be.
By all means try a star in a crescent (I think the fleur is too ‘French’, an heraldic rose too ‘Brit’ and a ‘lily of the field’ too obscure) but be prepared for them to not like it.
Joseph McMillan wrote:
The Koran teaches that Jesus (in Arabic known as ‘Isa) was a prophet, miraculously born of a virgin by the will of God, but that he was nevertheless only human, not the Son of God.
There is even a chapter (sura) in the Koran called "Mary" that contains the Islamic version of the birth of John the Baptist (also considered a prophet, in Arabic Yahya), the Annunciation, and the Nativity.
(And you’re right, this gets rather far afield from heraldry.)
Not when you consider that the Bible refers to Jesus as the Lamb of God and as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
Hey…those would be great supporters for Jesus’ arms! A lion on the dexter and a lamb on the sinister!
Well, the Ethiopian Solomonic Dynasty did use the Lion of Judah as their emblem, as a symbol of their descent from Solomon and Sheba (their son Menelik I being the first ruler of the Solomonic Dynasty according to the Ethiopian royal chronicle, called the, if I remember correctly Kebret Nagasat).
As to Denny’s congregation, I think you should tell them, "Heraldry is to refined for you people. How about a logo instead?" 
If ya can’t beat ‘em, get someone who can!
Cheers,
If they want an obvious symbol of Mary then use a fleur-de-lis. In fact that would work nicely with the design you already have. If that isn’t good enough then use a crescent. I wouldn’t like to see you use both. That’s just a personal opinion.
If they complain that these still aren’t obvious enough tell them they’re full of it. Heraldry or not in the artistic world and in the iconography of the Church those are very recognizable symbols of Mary. Tell them if they don’t think so then it’s their Catholicism that needs questioning not your abilities as a designer.
One final word: at all costs avoid using a big letter "M". That’s really bad heraldry. The coat of arms of the late Pope John Paul II were really a heraldic anomaly and, unfortunately, imitated all too often. Even in my diocese we got stuck with a big "M" in our coat of arms because the original designer of the arms didn’t know what he was doing. So, don’t take the easy way out by using a big block letter "M". Heraldry really shouldn’t include initials.
*edited by member*
Donnchadh wrote:
Good Father Guy, I have noticed on lots and lots of Marian icons that there are stars. I’ve seen six, seven and eight pointed stars on her clothes. And given that some of them were in the Holy Land and seen the Church of the Assumption there a bunch of stars I can not understand how a star is not a recognizable symbol for her.
It is.
However, you sometimes cannot convince people of that and once their minds are made up…
That’s why I suggest you use the fleur-de-lis. No one can argue it isn’t recognizably "marian".
Lesson for the future: never agree to design arms that will need the approval of a committee. Tell them to delegate one person to accept or reject. In this case it should be the priest in charge of both the parish and the school with maybe some consultation with the school’s principal. But never, never, never, NEVER (as in "not ever") a committee!
And now you see why.
Amen to that, Father Guy.
Denny, are you sure that it’s worth the money to put up with this bunch of yahoos who only think that they know more about heraldry than you? I must admit that I would probably not take their stubborn arrogance as long as you have thus far. But that’s just me.
gselvester wrote:
Lesson for the future: never agree to design arms that will need the approval of a committee. Tell them to delegate one person to accept or reject. In this case it should be the priest in charge of both the parish and the school with maybe some consultation with the school’s principal. But never, never, never, NEVER (as in "not ever") a committee!
I can see where this would be a nice rule to live by, but tough for someone seeking to make a living as a heraldic artist. I wonder if the better advice is not to get mouse-trapped into thinking you’re dealing only with one person, preparing the finished product to his satisfaction, and then having it sprung on you at the last minute that a committee’s approval is required. In other words, make sure you know who has to approve the design before you start the job.
Being up close and personal with our local Catholic parish (my wife and kids are Catholic, my son goes to the parochial school, and I certainly go to Mass more often than I do to the services at my Presbyterian church—roughly once a week, compared to a couple of times a year), I understand the authority a Catholic pastor has if he chooses to exercise it. However, if Denny starts doing design work for Episcopal or other Protestant congregations, he’ll find that they will rarely if ever give a single person the final authority over something like this. The same goes for a lot of non-religious private organizations—like the AHS, to name one at random!
Donnchadh wrote:
Colin, HA! I love that pic. I am going to take it and show Fr. Peter. I know he will get a laugh out of it too. And yes that is exactly the sort of iconography they’d like to have! The happy go lucky let’s get a beer kind of Jesus sort of thing. And if that’s their thing so be it, but I will stick with traditional icons and statuary.
If that’s what they want that makes it even more funny. That was used in the movie to make fun of the churches that feel they need to advertise, which it kind of sounds like the parishiners at your church want. I find the fact they want something like that wonderfully (well not for you, but from a humorous perspective) ironic
Linusboarder wrote:
... That was used in the movie ....
"Dogma"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma_(film)
—Guy
Denny,
any news?
*edited by member*
