Some idle thoughts concerning a new shield

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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04 March 2007 00:17
 

Greetings!

Let’s see if I am getting the hang of this yet:

 

Azure, a bend sinister cotised between a cross fitchy and a quill and lighting bolt in saltire Argent.

 

If this comes out looking like Ethel Merman, I’m going to rip my hair out.

 

The more I read, the more "overwhelming" this whole thing concerning the assumption of a shield becomes.  When it’s done correctly, you only assume one shield in a lifetime (talk about pressure).  There are so many things I would like to "cram" into a shield, but I will have to take the preacher’s motto on this:  KISS - Keep It Short (Simple), Stupid.

 

Just out of curiosity:  How many of you designed your arms with the idea your children would inherit them and use them, and how many went the personal route and expect your shield to be your shield and your children to devise their own when the time comes?  I guess what I am asking is how many of you deliberately set out to say something about your family that may last several hundred years, and how many only expect your shield to be an historical artifact or heirloom that simply points to you as a person?  (Am I making this all too complicated?  Someone, straighten me out, please!)

 

Waiting with baited breath…:wookie:

 

Pastor H.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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04 March 2007 03:10
 

*edited by member*

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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04 March 2007 07:51
 

When I devised my arms I chose charges that are specific to my (and my childrens) ancestry.  I plan on having my son inherit my arms, ring and seal and my daughter my arms in a lozenge as well so long as she’s a maiden.

When I registered my arms with the ACH (American College of Heraldry) they specifically listed my son and daughter as being my heraldic heirs with their own registration numbers (2940 and 2941).  My son and daughter are also mentioned in the CROM-BHGS armorial charter as my heirs.

 

I agree that it really takes away from the beauty of heraldry should children assume arms completely seperate from their father(s).  There may be times when certain augmentations can be made to the arms (such as cadency marks to denote from you and your son/daughter) but I really think whatever arms you assume for yourself are the arms your children and their children (and so on) should use.

 
Hall/Perdue
 
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Hall/Perdue
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04 March 2007 09:06
 

Dear Father William,

The truth is that your thought process is exactly what everyone goes through.  It is difficult to be interested in heraldry without having the desire to connect with ones ancestors and ones future offspring.  At the same time…don’t take yor arms devisal too seriously.  You are not creating a monument of yourself to future generations.  Instead it is more of a glorified name tag.  Pick one trait…maybe two… and represent it.

 

As for the individual vs. familial issues, I have chosen to devise arms for several potential generations.  It ammounts to a unique differencing system which I think allows future generations to continue a strong visual relationship to my arms, while at the same time differencing the arms without cluttering them.

 
Trent
 
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Trent
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04 March 2007 10:35
 

Father,

I asked the same question a few days ago.  Look at the response I got.

 

http://forums.heraldrysociety.us/showthread.php?t=2765

 

It’s a tough call.  I’m still trying to figure it out.

 
DJensen
 
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DJensen
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08 March 2007 12:11
 

I tried to design mine to be applicable to my grandfather, my father, and myself, while still being abstract enough to pass down without anything I think might be objectionable to one of my heirs.  It finished being more abstract than many I’ve seen here, and less specific than I’d intended originally, and I think I like it better that way.  I came in here with the notion that I had four different things that each meant something and each applied to my grandfather, my father, and myself.  I threw it out to the group and basically realized I’d missed the boat on keeping it simple.  The design is done not when there is nothing left to add, but when there’s nothing left to take away.  Something like that, anyhow. smile

Ton came up with a design that basically threw out 95% of what I’d started with, introduced a new element.  I modified it slightly and pitched it to my dad and granddad and they both liked it better than anything I’d come up with on my own.  As soon as I can weasel a motto out of my grandfather, I’m going to register it in his name.  I’ve had the basic design in my back pocket for a few months now, and I haven’t thought of changing it.  Before, I was coming up with six new designs a day.  The three of us agreed that we’d like to add little personal things, and that we’d be satisfied to keep those off the shield and place them in the crest, motto, or badge.  The shield identifies the line, and the full achievement identifies the individual like your last and full names.

 

There is no hurry.  Better (in my humble, uninformed, why-is-he-even-giving-advice opinion) to come up with a few designs, let them stew, pick one, then do nothing with it for a month to make sure you really like it than to register a week after putting pen to paper and hating it later.  You may have heard of the refrigerator test - put it up on the fridge and just see how you like it.  I’ve been conducting a fridge test in the back of my brain since Christmas.

 

FWIW, YMMV, Void in VT and where prohibited.

 
ESmith
 
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ESmith
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08 March 2007 18:32
 

FatherWilliam57 wrote:

Azure, a bend sinister cotised between a cross fitchy and a quill and lighting bolt in saltire Argent.


Not having seen it yet I can’t be sure but I suspect that the saltire would look a bit cramped in the bottom of your shield, especially the heater shaped shields (it might work alright in the square-ish French shields).  I might suggest switching the cross into the base and the quill/lightening bolt combo into the chief.

 
ESmith
 
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08 March 2007 18:53
 

Here’s what you asked for, although you might need to specify which goes in which direction in the saltire.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/Horatio86/Father-Williams.png

And Here’s a different arrangement with two changes, I switched the charges and changed the cross from a cross fitchy to a cross crosslet fitchy which I think looks better.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/Horatio86/Father-Williams2.png

 

Azure, a bend sinister cotised between a quill and lighting bolt in saltire and cross crosslet fitchy Argent. :yoda:

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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Stephen R. Hickman
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08 March 2007 20:51
 

WOW!  I like these!  Especially the first one!  :D

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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09 March 2007 00:51
 

OK, time to be honest:  how many of you were dumbstruck when you first saw an idea committed to paper (or pixels as the case may be)?  I am absolutely floored!

First, I am amazed that I actually blazoned this correctly (or at least enough for Everett to actually emblazon it).

 

Second, I was debating argent vs. or.  I now know that argent was the correct choice.  (The main reason for Azule is that blue is my favorite color…this will not change.)

 

Third, I can see the shortcomings of my original idea, namely, as Everett mentioned, the saltire is cramped in its original position.

 

As for rearranging, I need clarification on a fine point:  Do I understand correctly that the most "honorable" position on a shield would be dexter chief?  If so, I will have to reconsider whether or not to use the saltire.  The cross (whatever form it takes in the end) has to be in the most honorable position.

 

I am in your debt, Everett, for "bringing this to life" for me.  Now I need to "wrap my head around it" and perform a "refrigerator test" as was posted above.  As my favorite fictional character would say, "The game is afoot!"  Many thanks! :-D

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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09 March 2007 01:08
 

*edited by member*

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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09 March 2007 01:49
 

Denny,

Here’s hoping the second went better than the first.  You are remembered in prayer.

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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09 March 2007 03:37
 

At first, I wanted a shield that expressed my own personal history, hence the inclusion of the "quill and lighting bolt in saltire" (the symbol of a Cryptologic Technician, my rating in the Navy).  However, I am now much more enamoured with the idea of creating a shield that my great, great, great, great grandfather could have designed.

The branches of my family all trace back to Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and England.  The original "Henry" in my line arrived in the new world sometime between 1750 and 1776 (haven’t nailed this down yet).  If I go with the usual etymology of the name "Henry" (home-ruler), then a castle or tower would be an obvious choice for a charge.  Considering that in eight generations (including my father, myself, and my oldest son), the name "William" appears five times, and looking at the etymology of that name (will-helm, sometimes transliterated as "Lord Protector"), the castle or tower seems to be a no-brainer.

 

Keeping in mind the region my ancestors came from, a Celtic cross would probably be most appropriate.

 

Now, all of the various branches of my family settled along and around the Kiskiminetas River (say that three times real fast).  I myself was raised on the Kiski.  Therefore, a bend or pall wavy makes sense (perhaps with a double cotise…no particular reason, I just like that idea).  I prefer the bend sinister, but with the two charges I mentioned, I may be "forced" to go with the pall (height vs. width).  So, I guess I would be leaning toward:

 

Azule, a pall double cotised between a Celtic cross dexter and castle sinister Argent.

 

Unless someone out there thinks that a bend sinister could still work?

 

For a crest, an eastern hemlock (the state tree of Pennsylvania, where my ancestors obviously settled).

 

For a badge, perhaps some type of circlet divided by a voided cross with four charges, one in each quadrant:  Scottish thistle, Irish shamrock, Welsh leek (or daffodil, "St. David’s leek"), and an English rose.

 

Comments, suggestions, and the ocassional barb are hereby solicited!

 

Two questions:  First, since one is expected to do a reasonable amount of leg-work to ensure one is not encroaching on someone else’s shield, exactly how does one go about that in a responsible and thorough way?

 

Second, my oldest son would obviously inherit my shield (which means that tackie "label" would eventually go "bye-bye.").  My daughter would place my shield on a lozenge (or if she wanted a shield, a heart could be charged on the pall to show she is the first daughter, not quite as tackie as the label).  I do not want my second son to be "stuck" with a crescent, so I was thinking of a "take-off" on the Scottish system of cadency, namely, an Argent bordure and simply having that shield registered to him.  Thoughts?

 

Thank you in advance for your help and advice.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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09 March 2007 06:58
 

FatherWilliam57 wrote:

Keeping in mind the region my ancestors came from, a Celtic cross would probably be most appropriate.


Except keep in mind that the Celtic cross is extremely rare in the heraldry of these areas until very recently.


Quote:

Now, all of the various branches of my family settled along and around the Kiskiminetas River (say that three times real fast). I myself was raised on the Kiski.


Do you happen to know, or can you find out, what Kiskiminetas means? The bar wavy in my arms represents the creek my 3xgreat grandfather settled on—unfortunately its name, Tallassahatchee, just means "big town creek" in the Muscogee (Creek Indian) language. (I thought for a while that it meant "stony creek," and had a design made up with three white stones on a blue bar wavy, but the dictionary of Alabama place names squelched that.)


Quote:

I prefer the bend sinister, but with the two charges I mentioned, I may be "forced" to go with the pall (height vs. width). So, I guess I would be leaning toward:

Azule, a pall double cotised between a Celtic cross dexter and castle sinister Argent.


Not "pall," but "pale," if you mean the simple vertical stripe.


Quote:

Unless someone out there thinks that a bend sinister could still work?


Is there a particular reason you’re set on "sinister"?


Quote:

For a crest, an eastern hemlock (the state tree of Pennsylvania, where my ancestors obviously settled).


You’ll probably want to make this more distinctive than just a tree—an eastern hemlock will probably not be visually distinguishable from any other conifer. Perhaps something sitting on, or holding, etc., a sprig of eastern hemlock?

 

http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact pages/hemlock_eastern/tree.jpg

Eastern hemlock

 

http://www.oplin.org/tree/fact pages/spruce_norway/tree.jpg

Norway spruce


Quote:

For a badge, perhaps some type of circlet divided by a voided cross with four charges, one in each quadrant: Scottish thistle, Irish shamrock, Welsh leek (or daffodil, "St. David’s leek"), and an English rose.


Sorry, but ugh. This is what is disparagingly known as "lucky charms" heraldry. If you really feel you need a badge, I would look to do something with the charges from the shield or crest.


Quote:

Two questions: First, since one is expected to do a reasonable amount of leg-work to ensure one is not encroaching on someone else’s shield, exactly how does one go about that in a responsible and thorough way?


Start with Papworth’s Ordinary, which catalogues by charge the arms in Burke’s General Armory. There’s also an ordinary for the arms in the Lyon Register. Once the design is tentatively done, Google various versions of the blazon and see what comes up. I think Rietstaps’s Armorial General is indexed to allow looking for a particular blazon, but I’m not sure about that.


Quote:

Second, my oldest son would obviously inherit my shield (which means that tackie "label" would eventually go "bye-bye."). My daughter would place my shield on a lozenge (or if she wanted a shield, a heart could be charged on the pall to show she is the first daughter, not quite as tackie as the label). I do not want my second son to be "stuck" with a crescent, so I was thinking of a "take-off" on the Scottish system of cadency, namely, an Argent bordure and simply having that shield registered to him. Thoughts?


The American custom back into the 18th century is not to bother with differencing—in fact, the Oxford Guide to Heraldry says it’s not even normally practiced in England these days. So it’s definitely optional. I think I would leave it up to the kids if they want to do it, but if it’s to be done, I agree putting a bordure around the arms instead of a cadency mark would be preferable.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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09 March 2007 11:00
 

Joseph McMillan wrote:

Do you happen to know, or can you find out, what Kiskiminetas means?


There is no definite interpretation of the origin of the name. It may come from a Native American phrase Kithanne, meaning "Place of the largest stream." According to regional historians in the area, the name has historically had several other possible meanings, including: "river of the big fish" and "plenty of walnuts." Robert Walker Smith in his "History of Armstrong County, Pennsylvania" (Chicago: Waterman, Watkins & Co., 1883) reported that John Heckewelder (a Moravian writer, explorer, and historian who wrote about the Lenape and other tribes in Western Pennsylvania in the 1700s) claimed that the name is "corrupted from Gieschgumanito, signifying, make daylight. In this case, the etymology is: Gisch-gu—-day; gisch-que—-today; gieschapen—-it is daybreak; manitoon—-to make. It was probably the word of command, given by a warrior to his comrades at night to break up camp and resume the journey, or war-path." Smith also described another possible meaning from another source: "It is said in McCullough’s Narrative, that the Indians called this river Kee-ak-ksheman-nit-toos, signifying ‘cut spirit’." Smith noted that he preferred Heckewelder’s definition. It is also possible that "Kiskiminetas" means "clear, clean stream of many bends."

 

I like the one that means "to make daylight". Back in the days when I lived in Western PA I used to visit friends in a little town on the Kiski called East Vandergrift (pop 742). However, the original name of that little community was "Morning Sun"...perhaps a reference to the river it is located near.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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09 March 2007 11:16
 

OK, so how about this out-of-the-box (or off-the-wall) idea:

Per fess rayonny Azure two towers Argent, and Or a base wavy Azure.

 

The upper part then represents the names Williams and Henry, the lower the river "making daylight." (The spreading of light also being appropriate for the arms of a clergyman.)

 

Maybe the CT rating badge could go in the crest, surrounded by or sitting on top of a garland of eastern hemlock?

 

http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/OccStandards/CHAPTER 20_files/image002.jpg

 

Eastern hemlock:

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=11114