Designing my own Coat of Arms

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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11 March 2007 17:38
 

Charles Mosteller wrote:

From the document pertaining to my family’s name:

The original spelling of the name was Marstaller. However, our ancestors changed the spelling to Marsteller sometime prior to the 1500’s ... There is no reason known why our name would change from Marsteller to Mosteller within a few years, unless it may have been the way the name sounded to the North Carolina neighbors, about half of whom were English speaking people and half German speaking.

 


I would doubt that the ancestors in the 1500s consciously changed the spelling, and there’s little mystery about why the name would change further here in the US.  Few people in the 1500s were literate, and even those who were were not fixated on consistent spelling.  And even if they were literate upon arrival here in the 1700s (hardly a sure thing, unless you find documents with signatures and not marks), there still would be little consistency.  I have ancestors with (apparently) a similar background—apparently Palatinate Germans who came first to Pennsylvania and then migrated down the Appalachian ridge to western NC—whose name was variously spelled Mohler, Mohlar, Moler, Molar, Moulder, and Molder, sometime with two or three of these being used for the same individual.  The same happened even with native English speakers:  again, from my own ancestry, Mackquinney, Macquinney, Mackinne, McKinne (all used by people of that name) and further variations in references to them by other people, such as MacKinnie, McKinney, and McKenny.  Not to mention the dozens and dozens of variations on McMillan that exist.

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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Andrew J Vidal
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11 March 2007 18:10
 

I can attest to that, my own line has my surname spelled Vidal, Vidol, Bidal and Videl.

 
Charles Mosteller
 
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Charles Mosteller
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11 March 2007 20:45
 

I would guess that it was primarily a combination of widespread illiteracy and pronunciation variations from dialect to dialect.

My first name is Charles, and the "R" is not silent, but most everyone that I know pronounces it "Chales or Chaales," as though it had no letter "R" in it. As such, I could just imagine Marsteller becoming Mosteller over time, especially as the family members moved to the South.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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15 March 2007 12:33
 

I’ve seen old documents in which the writer spelled his own name three different ways in two pages.  And similar to Joe’s Palatinates, I have Mumpower, Mumbower, Mumbauer etc. stretching from PA to SC to VA to KY.  And clearly related Fannin - Fanin - Fanon etc. within a stones throw in the same cemetary.  Our modern fascination with scientific orthography is a relatively recent phenomenon.  In some cases spelling might be a clue, if unrelated folk of the same surname made a conscious effort to differentiate themselves; but a mere clue, standing alone, isn’t much as evidence.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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15 March 2007 12:38
 

Re-reading the various posts, how about a horse (or horse’s head) eating an apple?  Maybe as a crest?  Fairly simple & likely unique.

Or maybe not…

 
David Boven
 
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15 March 2007 16:39
 

Michael F. McCartney wrote:

I’ve seen old documents in which the writer spelled his own name three different ways in two pages.  And similar to Joe’s Palatinates, I have Mumpower, Mumbower, Mumbauer etc. stretching from PA to SC to VA to KY.  And clearly related Fannin - Fanin - Fanon etc. within a stones throw in the same cemetary.  Our modern fascination with scientific orthography is a relatively recent phenomenon.  In some cases spelling might be a clue, if unrelated folk of the same surname made a conscious effort to differentiate themselves; but a mere clue, standing alone, isn’t much as evidence.


On a related note, my Grandfather’s birth certificate said his name was Everett, his Social Security card said Evert, and his Army papers said Everet. When my mom was making up their wedding invitations many years ago, she asked him how to spell it and he said he didn’t care. In fact, most people just called him Ed. So not everyone is hung up spelling names consistently.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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01 April 2007 20:40
 

Charles,

I don’t know if you’ve tracked this down, but Rietstap’s Armorial General (the online edition at http://www.euraldic.com/blas_ma5.html) gives two arms of Marstaller:

 

Marstaller Coupé d’or sur sable, à une étrille d’argent, emmanchée d’or, brochant sur le coupé.

 

(Per fess Sable and Or, over all a curry-comb fesswise Argent shafted Or.)

 

Marstaller D’or, à un peigne de cheval d’argent, les dents en bas, le dos sommé d’une croisette.

 

(Or a horse comb Argent, teeth to base, issuant from the handle a cross couped.)

 

Very rough translations relying on the translator at www.heraldica.org and other places.  Interesting that both have gold-silver tincture violations.  Still, looks like a horse’s comb may be the characteristic charge associated with arms of Marstallers.

 

No indication in the on-line Rietstap where the particular families are from, unfortunately.  I don’t recall if the printed version is likely to have more detail, but I think so, at least down to the German princely state from which they come.

 

Anyway, if you’re still thinking red, white, and blue, a shield either per fess or per pale Azure and Gules with a horse-comb Argent over all, placed parallel with the partition line (i.e., fesswise if the division is per fess, or palewise if it is per pale) would be both reflective of the name and American in appearance.

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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01 April 2007 21:39
 

Just incase anyone else was wondering what a curry-comb looks like, I found this link.  I first searched out "curry-comb", but that kept bringing up images of modern rubber combs.  I switched to medieval and I found this image.  Scroll down and you’ll see it.

http://www.billyandcharlie.com/pend.html

 
Charles Mosteller
 
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01 April 2007 22:14
 

Joseph McMillan;42948 wrote:

Charles,

I don’t know if you’ve tracked this down, but Rietstap’s Armorial General (the online edition at http://www.euraldic.com/blas_ma5.html) gives two arms of Marstaller:

 

Marstaller Coupé d’or sur sable, à une étrille d’argent, emmanchée d’or, brochant sur le coupé.

 

(Per fess Sable and Or, over all a curry-comb fesswise Argent shafted Or.)

 

Marstaller D’or, à un peigne de cheval d’argent, les dents en bas, le dos sommé d’une croisette.

 

(Or a horse comb Argent, teeth to base, issuant from the handle a cross couped.)

 

Very rough translations relying on the translator at www.heraldica.org and other places.  Interesting that both have gold-silver tincture violations.  Still, looks like a horse’s comb may be the characteristic charge associated with arms of Marstallers.

 

No indication in the on-line Rietstap where the particular families are from, unfortunately.  I don’t recall if the printed version is likely to have more detail, but I think so, at least down to the German princely state from which they come.

 

Anyway, if you’re still thinking red, white, and blue, a shield either per fess or per pale Azure and Gules with a horse-comb Argent over all, placed parallel with the partition line (i.e., fesswise if the division is per fess, or palewise if it is per pale) would be both reflective of the name and American in appearance.


No, Joseph, I haven’t tracked it down. I wouldn’t know how to track it down, in fact.

 

My family line is apparently traced back to the Marsta(e)llers of Pfungstadt. There were several Marstallers/Marstellers who possessed coats of arms. However, No "proof" was found linking those several Marstallers/Marstellers to the Marstellers of Pfungstadt. This info is listed in the document that my aunt gave me a copy of.

 

So, why would I want to be "reflective of the name," since I have no proof that I have a claim to the Marstallers who used the horse comb in their coat of arms? Isn’t that basically the same thing as using the online heraldry sites that sell coats of arms based upon surnames?

 

The document that I have basically traces back the family line to the first immigrant ancestor who came to America. If the document is accurate, then his name was Johan Peter Marsteller (1705 - 1772). He was the oldest son born to Christoph Marsteller and Anna Catharina Hamann. Christoph was a smith (ironworker) who had achieved the status of Mastersmith in the Smith’s Guild.

 
Andrew J Vidal
 
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01 April 2007 22:21
 

Should you continue to research your ancestry and discover that you’re related to one of the families Joe mentions, than you can symbolize that relationship by borrowing a charge or orienting the charges in a simalar fashion.

A great example of that is both Ben Fosters arms, and John Duncan of Sketraw.  For my own arms, I can’t prove descent from the Vidal that was first granted arms in Spain in 1389, but I honor that possible distan ancestor by the talbot in my crest.  I oriented it in such a way as to symbolize "looking backward".

 

You don’t have to go that route if you don’t want to, but it’s not improper to do so either.

 
David Pritchard
 
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01 April 2007 22:33
 

I found four Marstaller arms in the book Großes Wappen Bilder Lexikon by Ottfried Neuburger. This book is a massive armorial of the burger arms of Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Write me a PM if you would like the details.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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01 April 2007 23:19
 

Charles Mosteller;42951 wrote:

So, why would I want to be "reflective of the name," since I have no proof that I have a claim to the Marstallers who used the horse comb in their coat of arms? Isn’t that basically the same thing as using the online heraldry sites that sell coats of arms based upon surnames?


No, not at all, particularly since the comb is clearly an allusion to the occupational origin of the name.  What you can’t legitimately do is simply take one of the two Marstaller arms from the Rietstap Armorial and use it as your own.  Indeed, it would not be appropriate to take one of the two and make some minor changes, like adding a bordure or surrounding the comb with, say, three horseshoes, because that would imply a relationship that you haven’t proven.  Of course, if you were a direct male-line descendant of one of the people in Rietstap who bore these arms (or if you had a common ancestor who bore the same arms), you could use them unchanged, and if you found that your ancestors were cousins of those who bore these arms, then it would be logical to use them with some appropriate, relatively minor differences, if you chose.  But changing the field colors, especially if you also changed the direction of the partition (or didn’t partition the field at all) is more than enough to show a lack of relationship.

 

What I would guess from these two arms is that people in different places who had the same occupational name of Marstaller hit upon the same simple tool of the trade as an appropriate charge for their arms.  See the Eisenhower article in the Presidential arms series for a similar situation—the name means "iron cutter," so Eisenhauer arms in Germany typically contain either an iron-miner’s gad or some other ironworking tool.  President Eisenhower’s arms are a simple blue anvil on gold.

 

Likewise, the Roosevelts.  The name Roosevelt means "field of roses."  Consequently, people named Roosevelt or Rosevelt or Rosenvelt tend to have arms with roses in them, not because they are trying to pretend to be related, but because the rose is a natural choice to represent a family of that name.

 
Charles Mosteller
 
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Charles Mosteller
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01 April 2007 23:53
 

Earlier in this thread it was said:


Joseph McMillan;40597 wrote:

"The use of the AHS Forum for extensive discussions working through the design is limited to AHS members and should be conducted in the section of the members’ area established for that purpose. Non-members may use this area to raise specific questions, but any exchanges concerning detailed design work should be pursued either by e-mail or using the personal messaging feature."


It doesn’t matter to me, personally, where it’s discussed, but does this thread need to be moved elsewhere?

 
Charles Mosteller
 
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02 April 2007 00:04
 

I’m not really a fan of horses, and I understand what you are saying, Joseph. I don’t really like the horse comb as a charge. It just doesn’t move me, motivate me, nor hold any real appeal for me. I’ll think about it, though. What about a horseshoe? I don’t know that I am sold on that, but I would probably be more inclined to embrace a horseshoe than a horse comb.

I may move away from the red, white, and blue color scheme. I’m not sure, mind you, just pondering it. My son remains my primary focus for a coat of arms. I have far more attachment to him than to distant, long dead relatives.

 

I try to remain flexible, though, and am open to suggestions. I’m not dead set on any design in particular, though of the designs that I have played with on my computer, thus far, I am most partial to a gold one-eyed sun on a dark blue shield.

 

I think that I want it to be bright and colorful, since I want to display it on a flag of some sort. Other colors are brighter than dark blue, though, but the sun charge stands out well against that color shield.

 
David Pritchard
 
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02 April 2007 08:47
 

As you want to have an entirely fresh field to represent yourself and your son without any reference to any charges used any earlier Marstallers, may I suggest that you keep the ties to the historical origin to your surname when it comes to your crest and mantling. Your mantling could very easily be powdered with horse shoes or snaffle bits. Your crest could be an arm wielding a lunge whip (used in training and exercise).