Unintentional ursurpation?

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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18 June 2007 07:43
 

As everyone else has said, and for the reasons they have said it: please stop worrying about this, Mike. Even our heraldic forebears knew that duplication occurred from time to time across jurisdictions and this isn’t heraldic duplication, much less usurpation (after all, the word usurpation kind of indicates foreknowledge).

Look at my arms - the Hand of Miriam is not a unique design, it’s been used by many people in many cultures under many names for many centuries. How many arms bear dragons of any and all sorts? Yet my arms are mine, no matter how many people have used the symbols individually or together in the past.

 

Obviously, you find it quite a surprise to find your interlaced rye in an earlier application. But does that mean that you should throw an elegant and beautiful design into the crapper because a single element (granted an important one) of that design has appeared in the past? Puh-leeze! Allow me to refer you to our own Guidelines for Heraldic Practice:

 

5.2.1. The traditional international customary law of arms holds that there is no objection to people domiciled in different jurisdictions bearing the same arms. As a result, many coats of arms—especially shields—are borne by unrelated families in different countries, or even in different provinces of the same country ... It is therefore recommended that such duplication normally be tolerated as the inevitable consequence of living in a melting pot society. 

 

And to whomever contacted you, indicating that it might be a good idea to redesign your arms, all I can say is :rolleyes: !!!

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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18 June 2007 09:17
 

Joseph McMillan wrote:

Is every non-armorial motif ever on a coin anywhere to be off-limits for arms? No more sprigs of three oak leaves (German coins under the Federal Republic). No more horses or salmon (Ireland). No more eagles (US, Germany). No more roses or thistles (UK).


I think for common charges, there is no problem.  For a complex arrangement of common charges, yes, that is what gave me pause.  It is the rare use of the complex arrangement that makes the connection between my arms and the coin.  Are you aware of any other examples of this arrangement of rye stalks?


gselvester;46370 wrote:

It sounds like you’ve already decided you want to change your arms and you simply want all of us to confirm that for you.


You are assuming too much.  :?  My son likes the current arms (teenagers are tricky creatures and seem to reject most parentally suggested ideas) and they are presently being carved in wood.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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18 June 2007 09:54
 

Michael Swanson;46381 wrote:

I think for common charges, there is no problem. For a complex arrangement of common charges, yes, that is what gave me pause. It is the rare use of the complex arrangement that makes the connection between my arms and the coin. Are you aware of any other examples of this arrangement of rye stalks?


I thought I remembered that you were aware of rye being stacked this way in Scandinavia and that’s where you got the idea from.  Not one stalk at a time, of course, but small clusters woven in a criss-cross pattern.  (I don’t know that they actually do this—I just thought you thought they did.  Am I remembering wrong?)

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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18 June 2007 10:26
 

Michael:  Apparently, my design is easily recognized today in Germany, since it was used on the 5, 10, and 50 Reichspfennig (Reichsmark) from 1924-1936.

I am not at all sure how "easily recognized" it actually would be.  In this country, the old "wheat penny" has slowly been removed from circulation by the U.S. Mint and private collectors.  And it was minted until 1959-1960.  I am not sure many young people today would remember it.  The coinage you are concerned about hasn’t been produced in 70 years.  Other than coin collectors, would anyone in Germany really be familiar with this coin?

 

Also, on second glance, I noticed that the coin used a "double stalk" with each rye head, while you only use one.  The cross-hatching on the coin is far more elaborate than on your shield.  Just another difference that should be taken into account.  (Question for someone who might know:  Is there a significance to a "double stalk" as opposed to a "single stock"?  How common is either one in the realm of heraldry?)

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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18 June 2007 10:27
 

Joseph McMillan;46383 wrote:

I thought I remembered that you were aware of rye being stacked this way in Scandinavia and that’s where you got the idea from.  Not one stalk at a time, of course, but small clusters woven in a criss-cross pattern.  (I don’t know that they actually do this—I just thought you thought they did.  Am I remembering wrong?)


The arms of Vasa have a couped garb, and many Finns use this unique charge in their arms.  I was trying to be different, but the crafty Germans beat me to it.

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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18 June 2007 11:37
 

Hmm here’s my 2¢...

I understand the sinking feeling you got when you saw that pattern on the coin. I can understand that If it were something similar to my arms i would be disapointed as well.

 

But in saying that, I would give it a couple weeks before deciding what I wanted to do. I agree with everyone here that the coin is so old, and insignificant that only the most fanatical coin collectors would even be aware of the similarities, even in Germany. As was said earlier, the wheat penny is very unknown in the states today. In saying that the US has been relatively stable since the wheat penny has stopped being reproduced.

 

Since the coin that bears a resemblence to the "Swanson Rye" was produced in Germany, the country has undergone
<ul class=“bbcode_list”>
<li>One of the biggest wars of all-time, on their soil</li>
<li>a segregation of east and west</li>
<li>a reunification of east and west</li>
<li>At least 2 currency changes (Deutchmark, Euro). (I do not know if East Germany underwent a currency change when the Berlin wall came down as well)</li>
</ul>


All of this leads me to believe that almost no one would ever make any kind of connection from your CoA to an obscure mostly pre-nazi German coin, and as time passes even fewer would make that connection.

 

In saying all this, the most important thing is that you enjoy and like your design, and if the rye stalks bother you, then I think it might be appropriate to change, since it’s your CoA we’re talking about.

 

So i guess I would say I would prefer if they stayed the same, as I find your design one of my favorites. In my opinion it is completely unique charge, and it easily identifies you, while being a very simple and nice looking design.

 

Not sure if I helped or not, but those are my thoughts on the matter

 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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18 June 2007 13:27
 

Thanks guys.  I am not going to change my arms.  But I wanted to open my mind to a good argument to change them, since most of us are not objective about our own as we are about other’s designs and circumstances.

Of course, I am going to buy a rye mark on ebay.

 

Here is the Vasa design I mentioned earlier on a coin, medal, and on shields:

 

http://69.55.175.34/bswpg/images7/649riga.jpg

http://www.medal-medaille.com/images/SE109a.jpg

 

From Vasa, Finland:

http://www.ngw.nl/int/fin/v/images/vaasa.jpg

Vasa over the Finland territories…

http://www.nalle.fi/images/coat_of_arms/public/finland/vaakuna_suomi_juhana_uusi.jpg

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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Stephen R. Hickman
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18 June 2007 23:57
 

Michael, you designed you CoA with thought, passion, and integrity.  The design came from your heart.  They are your coat of arms.  To change them is the same as changing yourself.  Are you sure that you want to do this over a 65+ year old coin?


WBHenry;46386 wrote:

In this country, the old "wheat penny" has slowly been removed from circulation by the U.S. Mint and private collectors.  And it was minted until 1959-1960.  I am not sure many young people today would remember it.


Off topic, the "wheat penny" is not yet completely out of circulation.  I happen to have a coin collection which includes coins from literally the world over.  The "wheat penny" is easily my most common type of coin, with several added every 2-3 months.  While it is quite rare in comparison to the "Lincoln Memorial" penny, it is still in circulation, albeit in increasingly rare quantities. Incidenally, my 7-year-old daughter recently found a "wheat penny", circa 1945.

 

Back on topic, the coin which has Michael’s attention was taken out of circulation before any baby-boomer was ever born, and was not designed heraldically.  The government which designed and circulated it, as well as the government which removed it from circulation, are no longer in existance.  Usurpation is impossible in this instance.

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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19 June 2007 02:15
 

Mike,

The Vasa motif is incorporated into the Johanniterorden (Sweden) badge:

http://hem.passagen.se/jonar242/bilder/rjoho.jpg

This Order is one of the legitimate "Protestant" Orders of the "Alliance Orders of St. John"
Alliance St. John wrote:

THE HISTORY OF THE JOHANNITERORDE IN SWEDEN

Brothers of the Order of St John arrived in Sweden around 1170 and founded before 1185 a monastery in Eskilstuna at the grave of the martyr St Eskil, 100km west of Stockholm. The monastery soon became a centre for the cure of the old and infirm. The Swedish Royal Houses and important noble families became generous donors to St John and Eskilstuna. During the 14th century a smaller monastery was founded in Stockholm where goods and other tributes were stored. From Stockholm, they were sent further to the headquarters of the Priory of Dacia. At the end of the Middle Ages, the Order also acquired a church in Stockholm and a monastery in the southeast of the country close to the town of Kalmar. In 1467 leading Swedish members of the Order had direct independent links with Rhodes. The reformation in 1527 ruled by King Gustav I resulted in the temporary extinction of the Order in Sweden.

 

During the last centuries, Swedish nobles became knights of the Bailiwick of Brandenburg. Among them a Swedish Commandery of the Order was founded in 1920 under the protection of King Gustav V and Queen Victoria; but the Commandery was formally still affiliated to the Bailiwick of Brandenburg until 1946.

 

In November 1946, Johanniterorden I Sverige was embodied by a Royal Charter with King Gustav V as its Herre och Mästare (Sire and Master). Today HM King Carl XVI Gustav is the High Patron and HM Queen Silvia the First Honorary Member of the Order. Its headquarters have been at the Riddarhuset in Stockholm. The Order has semi-official status, and has about 330 members of whom at least 50 are Knights of Justice. The Order aims to promote Christian values. Knights have to belong to the Swedish Church or another Christian Evangelical Church and acknowledge the Christian faith.

 

Kommendatorn (the Commander) is in charge of the Order, assisted by Konventet (the Chapter) with a maximum of twelve members. The highest decision-making body of the Order is Riddardagen (the Annual Meeting). Beneath the Chapter, the Order is organised in four regions: Southern, Western, Eastern and the Stockholm area.

 

Emblem, standard and decorations

The legally protected Emblem of the Order is the white Amalfi cross with sheaves connecting the arms of the cross. The Standard is in red and blue, white and gold, showing the white cross twice iterated on a red background and three open crowns (the coat of arms of Sweden) in gold on a blue background. The knights wear a breast cross and collar cross in white enamel. The collar cross worn on a black silk ribbon with white edged stripes, again has sheaves connecting the arms with the cross. For the knights of Justice, these are crowned by a royal crown in gold (also protected in law).

 

Source:http://www.allianceofstjohn.org/ (click "History", then"History of Member Orders"


Cheers!