Baker Arms

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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22 June 2007 13:58
 

Congratulations, Jonathan!  I think it is a fine achievement and your family should be well pleased.  Well done!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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22 June 2007 14:28
 

Jonathan R. Baker;46581 wrote:

Now, I worked with Patrick in the chat room on the blazon and here is what we hammered out. If you see any errors, please let me know.

 

"Vert, thirteen estoiles wavy Argent, on a chief dovetailed Sable, fimbriated Or, three garbs Gold banded Green. Upon a wreath, a demi-bear Sable, armed, eyed and holding a shepherd’s crook Or. For a motto, ‘Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’. For a badge, a pellet fimbriated Or charged with a garb of the last banded Vert."

 


The word "wavy" is not necessary to describe the estoiles.  "Gold" is a permissible variant of "Or," if you like, but I don’t think "Green" should be used for "Vert" unless you’re going to abandon traditional blazon altogether.

 

You need to flag that the crest is a crest.  As written in one continuous paragraph it sounds like you’re describing more of the arms.  You also don’t describe the tinctures of the wreath.  And my personal preference would be to describe your bear as "out of a wreath" rather than "on a wreath," but that’s not terribly important.

 

I would blazon it as:

 

Arms - Vert thirteen estoiles Argent, on a chief dovetailed Sable fimbriated three garbs Or banded Vert.

 

Crest - From a wreath of the colors a demi-bear Sable armed, orbed, and holding a shepherd’s crook Or.  [Once you’ve specified the color of the eyes and claws, do you not also want to say "langued Gules"?  In that case, I’d say "armed and orbed Or, langued Gules, and holding a shepherd’s crook Gold."]

 

Motto:  Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  (Although that’s awfully long to fit on a normal length scroll and still be readable.)

 

Badge:  On a pellet fimbriated Or a garb of the same banded Vert.

 

(I would close by reiterating my view that how something is blazoned is a matter of indifference as long as the artist working from the blazon comes up with what the design is intended to be.)

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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22 June 2007 15:48
 

If you new motto, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, were translated to Latin it would be much shorter and would fit onto a scroll more easily.

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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22 June 2007 16:50
 

I am no Latin scholar, but would this be correct?

Timor Domini principium scientiae

 

or

 

Timor Domini principium sapientiæ

 
Jonathan R. Baker
 
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Jonathan R. Baker
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22 June 2007 17:42
 

Joseph McMillan;46586 wrote:

[/color]

The word "wavy" is not necessary to describe the estoiles.  "Gold" is a permissible variant of "Or," if you like, but I don’t think "Green" should be used for "Vert" unless you’re going to abandon traditional blazon altogether.


I originally had it as "on a chief dovetailed Sable Fimbriated Or, three garbs of the same, banded Vert."  But Patrick suggested that I might not want to repeat the "Vert".  As for the estoiles wavy, I included it to be specific because I thought the the mullet/estoile distinction was primarily an UK convention.  It can easily be dropped though.


Joseph McMillan wrote:

You need to flag that the crest is a crest.  As written in one continuous paragraph it sounds like you’re describing more of the arms.  You also don’t describe the tinctures of the wreath.  And my personal preference would be to describe your bear as "out of a wreath" rather than "on a wreath," but that’s not terribly important.


Again, I thought that this would simply be the first color and first metal, but it’s not a problem to change.


Joseph McMillan wrote:

Crest - From a wreath of the colors a demi-bear Sable armed, orbed, and holding a shepherd’s crook Or.  [Once you’ve specified the color of the eyes and claws, do you not also want to say "langued Gules"?  In that case, I’d say "armed and orbed Or, langued Gules, and holding a shepherd’s crook Gold."]


I didn’t include the langued Gules because the family specifically didn’t like traditional depictions of heraldic animals that had the tongue hanging out.  I like it, but they didn’t and it’s not that big of a deal.


Joseph McMillan wrote:

Motto:  Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  (Although that’s awfully long to fit on a normal length scroll and still be readable.)

David Pritchard;46588 wrote:

If you new motto, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, were translated to Latin it would be much shorter and would fit onto a scroll more easily.


I realize that the motto is a long one, and I actually argued for having it in Latin, but we went for simplicity.  Since most people do not read Latin these days, it would just mean having to explain it to everyone who sees it.


WBHenry;46590 wrote:

I am no Latin scholar, but would this be correct?

Timor Domini principium scientiae

 

or

 

Timor Domini principium sapientiæ


I think either of those would work, William.  St. Jerome has it as " timor Domini principium scientiae sapientiam."

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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22 June 2007 17:57
 

I like this version better than the others: Timor Domini principium sapientiæ.

 
Hugh Brady
 
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Hugh Brady
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22 June 2007 18:19
 

I have two thoughts on the motto. Did you look in a book of mottoes and see if there was something similar expressed more succinctly? Also, have you thought about just the first couple of words in either English or Latin (Fear of the Lord or (i am guessing) Timor Domini)? I think enough to recall it is all you need and reduces the clutter on the motto scroll…I know many of the ancient mottoes are this way. Just some thoughts.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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23 June 2007 08:24
 

Oh, this is fun! Jonathan and I hammered out the blazon a little bit yesterday (as he previously indicated). Here are a few notes on how things got put down at that time:

His family specifically wanted:

a.  the entire Biblical quote and

b. they wanted it in English.

 

They didn’t want to spend time translating it to others. Unfortunate, but as his family told him, "Only nerds like you would know what it means in Latin". I told him his response should be, "Only nerds like me will be interested in knowing what it means in Latin," but he’s weary of the process of getting approvals from the family (I can relate to that situation).

 

As to the choices of ‘estoile wavy’ and ‘green’. Actually, I pushed Jonathan into those choices because:

 

Estoiles are only wavy by nature if there are Mullets that are straight by nature and nobody uses the term ‘Star’ (Brooke-Little). Therefore, to avoid the entire "is it a star, is it a mullet, or is it an estoile" argument, I chose estoile wavy. If an estoile is wavy then there have to be mullets which are not (as mullet and estoile are both actually types of stars and synonyms for that word). Gentlemen, you can’t have it both ways. :mullet: :mullet: :mullet:

 

"Avoid Tautology! Avoid Tautology! Avoid Tautology!" This was the first lesson I found promulgated at AHS when I joined. Now, if Gold is a permissible variant for Or (in order to avoid tautology) then Green is a permissible variant for Vert and nobody is abandoning traditional anything. The only other way to Avoid Tautology is to adopt the "of the first" style of blazoning, which Jonathan and I both despise.

 

So, guys, which is it? Are there mullets and do we Avoid Tautology!, or are there and do we not?

 

:rolleyes:

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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23 June 2007 10:14
 

Had to leave to go to work, but now that I’m here I can continue. I want to stress that I (and I suspect, Jonathan) am not married to any of the choices made in the blazon. I just wanted to present the arguments used to write it the way we did. That being said, I also led him not to specify the colors of the torse or wreath, based on the guidance I got here that:

a. it is assumed that the colors will be the first tincture and first metal under normal circumstances, and

 

b. it limits the creativity of other artists who might see things otherwise. Specifically, I’m thinking of my arms and how (in all but one case) the artists who emblazoned them immediately doubled my torse and mantling Or instead of Argent. In the ensuing debate that followed here the consensus was that while Gules doubled Or looked better, Gules doubled Argent was more correct because that’s what the blazon said and (while I hesitate to use the word these days wink ), because they’re my livery colors.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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23 June 2007 11:54
 

Patrick Williams;46617 wrote:

His family specifically wanted:

a. the entire Biblical quote and

b. they wanted it in English.


I have no problem with this. I have little sympathy with the impulse to take something originally written in another language and translate it into Latin to make it sound classier. The original of this phrase is Hebrew. My only concern is length, and that will have to be the artist’s problem.


Quote:

Estoiles are only wavy by nature if there are Mullets that are straight by nature and nobody uses the term ‘Star’ (Brooke-Little).


Can you be more specific about the B-L quotation? In English-language blazonry, mullets always have straight points—five by default—and estoiles always have wavy points—six by default.


Quote:

Therefore, to avoid the entire "is it a star, is it a mullet, or is it an estoile" argument, I chose estoile wavy.


You don’t have to resolve what it is; you just have to signal the reader/artist what it’s supposed to look like. When you blazon something as an estoile, with no further description, it is supposed to come out looking like the little silver thingies in the field of Jonathan’s arms.


Quote:

If an estoile is wavy then there have to be mullets which are not (as mullet and estoile are both actually types of stars and synonyms for that word). Gentlemen, you can’t have it both ways.


In the first place, a mullet is not a star. It is the rowel of a spur. It just happens to look the same as a five-pointed star with straight points. In the second, even if mullet were a synonym for star, then it is perfectly sufficient to understand that a mullet has five straight points and estoile has six wavy ones. By your logic (not that logic has anything to do with the conventions of blazon), if estoiles have to be blazoned "wavy" then mullets have to be blazoned in a way to indicate that they are not wavy. But this is not necessary—it’s like arguing that because bears don’t have long tails it is necessary to blazon a lion as "long-tailed."

 

If we were blazoning in French, German, or Spanish, then yes, by all means specify what kind of etoile, Stern, or estrella is intended. In English it’s not necessary. (And the issue of the charge called "star" in traditional Scottish and, nowadays, in a fair amount of American blazon is a red herring. [No, I did not say a star is a herring.] "Star" blazoned as "star" always means an unpierced figure with straight points, in modern times with five points by default, identical with what the English (and the Scots under their influence) call a mullet.)


Quote:

"Avoid Tautology! Avoid Tautology! Avoid Tautology!" This was the first lesson I found promulgated at AHS when I joined. Now, if Gold is a permissible variant for Or (in order to avoid tautology) then Green is a permissible variant for Vert and nobody is abandoning traditional anything. The only other way to Avoid Tautology is to adopt the "of the first" style of blazoning, which Jonathan and I both despise.


I hope that this was not really the first lesson. You should avoid unnecessary repetition and keep the blazon as concise as possible consistent with intelligibility, e.g.:


Quote:

Not Argent a bend Azure, and on the bend an arrow Or, with a rose gules in sinister chief and another one in dexter base,

But Argent on a bend Azure between two roses Gules an arrow Or.


But that doesn’t license the use of normal English names for the tinctures within the Anglo-Norman-French language of blazoning. For some illogical reason, "gold" and "silver" are accepted as variants for "or" and "argent," but this does not apply to the colors.  Modern practice of the College of Arms is simply to name the color a second time if there’s no way to rephrase the blazon without sacrificing clarity.

 

On the crest wreath, my point is that you need to either break the blazon up as I did, or at least preface the phrase "on a wreath" with "For a crest," or similar words.  If you don’t want to say "wreath of the colors" because "of the colors" is understood, then you might as well omit "on a wreath," that also being understood.  Many armorials describe crests without the "on a wreath" formula, but if you do use "on a wreath," the normal style is to go on and say "of the colors."

 

By the way, wreathes are not doubled.  Mantling is doubled.

 
Patrick Williams
 
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23 June 2007 14:28
 

Thanks for the clarifications, Joseph, thy make sense. I wish there was a single place where current heraldic fashion was documented. Perhaps our director of education would consider making a small document?

 
Jonathan R. Baker
 
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Jonathan R. Baker
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09 July 2007 17:13
 

Hey, everybody!

Michael published our registration at the USHR…http://usheraldicregistry.com/pmwiki.php?n=Registrations.20070707J

 

No picture yet, but soon, I should think.

 

The NEHGS Committee on Heraldry is sending me a form for their registry, as well.