Fred White design

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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13 September 2007 01:52
 

Well, it seems, then, like a sound way to difference the Habersham arms and tap into the spirit of French design would be to go with Azure, a chevron and three crosses pattee argent (two up, one down, of course), and keep the crest as is—a mullet sable on a ducal coronet or. The meaning of the whole would then be nice and opaque, vice appearing to hang the whole family c.v. out for inspection. If a further difference were called for, how would it do to make the ordinary and charges sable engrailed argent? Would that make the whole too dark? If so, what about putting a hole in the mullet?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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13 September 2007 06:46
 

fwhite;49619 wrote:

Well, it seems, then, like a sound way to difference the Habersham arms and tap into the spirit of French design would be to go with Azure, a chevron and three crosses pattee argent (two up, one down, of course)


Except that a design this simple is almost certainly already someone else’s arms—probably in every jurisdiction.  (I know, I know:  we say simpler is better, then spring the "too simple" criticism.)  How about adding a chief with something on it?  If you wanted to commemorate your ancestor’s Revolutionary service (and thus your SoC membership), you might use three blue eagles displayed with wings inverted—or one with wings expanded—on a white chief, for example.


Quote:

, and keep the crest as is—a mullet sable on a ducal coronet or.


A mullet sable alone bothers me, once again, as too simple.  Perhaps you might charge it with one or more crosses paty as in the arms?


Quote:

If a further difference were called for, how would it do to make the ordinary and charges sable engrailed argent? Would that make the whole too dark? If so, what about putting a hole in the mullet?


I think you mean fimbriated rather than engrailed.  I do think that would make it all too dark.  Piercing the mullet doesn’t do much toward differencing, since originally whether to pierce or not seems to have been a matter of the artist’s discretion.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 September 2007 13:13
 

Joseph McMillan;49622 wrote:

Except that a design this simple is almost certainly already someone else’s arms—probably in every jurisdiction.


In fact, it already exists in Picardy, where Fred’s French ancestor originated.

 

From Frédéric Luz’s site on French heraldry, http://www.luz-herald.net/free/g1.html:

 

Gaillard de Bœncourt en Picardie. D’azur au chevron d’argent, accompagné de trois croix pattées du même, 2 en chef et 1 en pointe.

 

or

 

"Azure a chevron Argent between three crosses paty of the same, two in chief and one in base."

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 September 2007 13:18
 

Also in Scotland (a branch of the Barclay family) and the US. Crozier’s General Armory gives these as the arms of James Barclay, who immigrated to Pennsylvania in 1722, and John Barclay, who immigrated to New Jersey in 1731.  See our Roll of Early American Arms, http://www.americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=Roll.B

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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13 September 2007 13:51
 

Too bad about Barclay, because I really like that design. . . Che sera sera.

Anyway, Joe, you mention jurisdictions. James Habersham died in 1775, before we declared independence, prior to which the jurisdiction in which we live arguably did not exist. There was no United States in 1775, so even if I just took over the arms, lock, stock, and fess, wouldn’t I be in the clear, duplication wise? I would think taking over the design of a non-male-line ancestor who lived in another jurisdiction is better than duplicating the design of a non-ancestor from another jurisdiction.

 

But perhaps I should just stop fighting. What other options do I have for deviating as little as possible from the Habersham design?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 September 2007 14:40
 

Well, here are a couple of ideas that may have a fighting chance of being unique (something we generally strive for where possible):

- Per pale Color and Metal a chevron (or fess) between six crosses paty counterchanged.

 

- Per chevron Metal and Color three crosses paty and as many escallops counterchanged.  (In chief, that would be cross-shell-cross, in a second row two shells, and in base the third cross.)

 

- Vary the fess to be engrailed, invected, nebuly, or something and use a less common type of cross rather than paty.  E.g., Azure a fess nebuly between six crosses xxxxx Argent.  If this duplicates existing arms, reverse the tinctures, or make the fess or the field semy of something.  See http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpglossc.htm#Cross annuletty for a selection (by no means exhaustive) or crosses.

 

If you’re partial to cotton, a charge I’ve often wanted to experiment with would be a roundel invected of six lobes (or six inward indentations, or however one would blazon it), which would simulate a cotton boll viewed from above.  You could use six of these instead of the crosses, and it would almost certainly be original, and at least not "un-French."

 

You could commemorate your ancestor Leblanc dit Jolicoeur by charging the fess with one or more hearts.

 

How about this:  "Argent on a fess between six crosses flory Azure three hearts of the field"?

 

The tinctures and basic design are Habersham, but in reversed colors, and the white hearts on the fess play on both Leblanc and Jolicoeur?

 

For the crest, a demigreyhound salient (leaping) Gules (red like the lions in the provincial arms of Picardy) gorged with a collar Argent, suspended therefrom a mullet Sable?  A little complicated, but probably not duplicative.  Or a collar could be charged with mullets Sable, like those around the lions’ necks in the arms of Macmillan of Macmillan and Knap:

 

http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/artists/images/large/Romilly1.gif

 

By the way, a greyhound courant (running) would not be interpreted as running away, but running in pursuit of its prey.  If you prefer, one traditional way of blazoning this would be "in full course."  But a running greyhound would be hard to portray on top of a helmet.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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13 September 2007 16:25
 

All very good ideas which I will examine carefully, and as always, I am grateful for the generosity with which my fellow AHS members share their imaginative gifts.

But meanwhile, what about the jurisdictional question? Would I not be in the clear if I simply took over the James Habersham arms, given that he was a British subject and I am not? I mean, heck, how do we know his arms weren’t duplicates of someone else’s in his own lifetime?

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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13 September 2007 16:32
 

All very good ideas which I will examine carefully, and as always, I am grateful for the generosity with which my fellow AHS members share their imaginative gifts.

But meanwhile, what about the jurisdictional question? Would I not be in the clear if I simply took over the James Habersham arms, given that he was a British subject and I am not?

 

And in terms of differencing by making the crosses pattee and the fess sable, fimbriated argent, couldn’t that work if the azure were rendered as sky or cadet blue?

 
Hardouin
 
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Hardouin
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13 September 2007 16:40
 

fwhite;49648 wrote:

But meanwhile, what about the jurisdictional question? Would I not be in the clear if I simply took over the James Habersham arms, given that he was a British subject and I am not? I mean, heck, how do we know his arms weren’t duplicates of someone else’s in his own lifetime?


Fred,

 

I am once again interjecting my opinion in view of French practice and will leave it to my betters to give you hints on U.S. custom. Joe has been giving some great advice and I like some of his design suggestions, for what that is worth.

 

Laurent Granier, in his Overview of Heraldry (you can read it at www.laurentgranier.com ), states;

 

Coats-of-arms are considered as an intangible part of the patronymic name by French law and as such are protected

 

You’re surname isn’t Habersham, so if you want to follow French custom, assume your own arms or base them off of Habersham if you wish to honor that ancestry.

 

In regards to jurisdiction, it is just polite to avoid confusion or the appearance of usurping arms.

 

 

Rob

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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13 September 2007 21:03
 

fwhite;49649 wrote:

But meanwhile, what about the jurisdictional question? Would I not be in the clear if I simply took over the James Habersham arms, given that he was a British subject and I am not?


No.  It’s one thing to devise a design that happens to be the same as someone else’s.  It’s quite another to pirate an existing design intentionally, no matter what its origin.


Quote:

And in terms of differencing by making the crosses pattee and the fess sable, fimbriated argent, couldn’t that work if the azure were rendered as sky or cadet blue?


No, azure is azure, regardless of the shade.  There is such a thing as "bleu celeste," but it’s a relatively new invention and is a cop-out as a way of differencing.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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14 September 2007 14:31
 

Joe, of the ideas you came up with, I like the following (only slightly modified):

How about, "Per bend Azure and Argent, a fess between six crosses paty counterchanged" for the shield? Is that taken? If so, how about adding a bordure of some sort?

 

I think my preference would still be to just leave the Habersham crest as is (mullet Sable on a ducal coronet Or), plain or not, and achieve the second expected difference through a bordure. But if that’s out, how about "On a ducal coronet or, a demigreyhound salient proper gorged with a collar Argent, suspended therefrom a mullet Sable" for the crest?

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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15 September 2007 01:07
 

Having sketched it out with colored pencils, I find myself very pleased with the shield, "Per bend Azure and Argent, a fess between six crosses paty counterchanged." Is there an efficient or at least standard way for me to find out if this design is taken? If it is, I think a logical next step would be to employ a bordure Sable charged with mullets, more crosses paty, or crosses of Lorraine bottony. Any thoughts on this direction? I welcome the counsel of all.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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17 September 2007 20:51
 

Vetting a new design is one of the most difficult parts of modern heraldic design.  There are some published "ordinaries" (like Burke only arranged by design rather than by name)—e.g. Pqapworth’s ordinary, available if you’ree lucky in a good library, or perhaps by inter-library loan (ask your librarian).  There are similar ordinaries which do the same for various published European armorials, but others will need to suggest particular titles.  There is also a very good on-line armorial fro the Society for Creative Anachronism, an historical recreation group, but again others will have to give you the url.

My guess FWIW is that your design is quite likely unique, and also IMO not at all a bad design.  But stick it on the fridge for a few weeks before you make any long-term commitment to it—else you may find that you’ve blazoned in haste & will regret at your leisure.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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17 September 2007 21:01
 

Thanks, Michael!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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17 September 2007 21:56
 

Michael F. McCartney;49816 wrote:

Vetting a new design is one of the most difficult parts of modern heraldic design. There are some published "ordinaries" (like Burke only arranged by design rather than by name)—e.g. Pqapworth’s ordinary, available if you’ree lucky in a good library, or perhaps by inter-library loan (ask your librarian). .


Papworth is available online at Google Books, as is Balfour Paul’s Scottish ordinary.  However, to do a text search, you have to be aware that both of them abbreviated tinctures and some charges, so if you search, e.g., for "Gules a chevron argent," you may get no hits because the arms are listed under "Gu. a chev. arg."

 

Doing a quick search of "per bend az. and arg.", I find nothing in Papworth or Balfour Paul that would conflict with Fred’s design.  You might also try googling French and German versions of the blazon to see if anything turns up elsewhere.  Probably not, but you never know.