Scottish and American arms for MacLea

 
Linusboarder
 
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14 November 2007 10:24
 

Dohrman Byers;51315 wrote:

A small suggestion regarding Colin’s latest design:

What if the lion were holding a pine tree eradicated vert in its raised forepaw, rather than displayed on a shield?


Another excellent Idea, I’ll put it together tonight when I get hope to my beloved photoshop

 
Kyle MacLea
 
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14 November 2007 12:04
 

To Colin, Dohrman, and Mike,

Thanks for the additional ideas.  I’ve decided I’m going to largely stay out of the discussion for a little, see what other ideas you guys might come up with, there have been some very nice ones so far.

 

Just a note that I have in the past, as noted, considered the "per saltire" modification of the quarterly arms.  I would certainly consider this again as well.  I will say that perhaps the inclusion of a doubled 2nd/3rd quarter might add to the confusion of heraldic heiresses in a way that if all four quarters were different it would not as much, but I can certainly see this.  I’m curious what others think of West Highland arms in the American context as well.

 

But in the mean time, please throw out any fun ideas, even if they seem outlandish.  A lot of the previous design discussions have seem some arms that have a lot of people who jump up and point out the truly exceptional designs.  If this thread has such a moment, that would be excellent too!  (I’d rather more ideas even if they "violate" the "rules" or desires I’ve already laid out!)

 

Kyle=

 
Kyle MacLea
 
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15 November 2007 16:03
 

I’ve tried my hand at combining the "per saltire" suggestion with a couple of the other design elements.  Pardon my poor photoshopping.

Basically, I combined the Lion and salmon in the bottom ‘quarter’ and put my sparrowhawk above the Boston trimount in the top ‘quarter’.  Looks interesting, except that the trimount could easily be confused with the parting per fess wavy in the bottom.  (My interpretation of this would be perhaps that he left the lion behind when he crossed the water as a jeweler (sparrowhawk) to the trimount of Boston.)

 

Maybe this will spur some further suggestions or ideas.  I’m still not sure about the per saltire "quartering" but I think it gives the shield a very symmetrical look that it lacks with the traditional West Highland quartering.

 

Kyle=

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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15 November 2007 17:34
 

Actually, I think the similarity of the base wavy and the trimount adds to the effectiveness of the design. This looks very promising.

What would you think about having the hawk flying across the ocean (in the upper quarter) and the lion rampant on the trimount (feet actually touching the hills)? The trimount gets a little cramped in the upper area but wouldn’t in base.

 

(EDITED:  Never mind, then the salmon gets lost.

 

I know:  how about a Massachusetts cod instead of a salmon?)

 
Kyle MacLea
 
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15 November 2007 19:15
 

Not a bad idea to try… It would be interesting to see the bird-over-the-waves-with-fish in the upper quarter and the lion over the trimounts in bottom quarter.  Actually, this could easily be reversed too.

I won’t have a chance to do this over the next couple of days, but if anyone has a bit to emblazon it, it would be interesting to see.  Otherwise, I’ll give a shot next week some time.

 

I would also like to see how these ideas work in the traditional quartering as well, at some point.

 

I think it might be interesting per James’s suggestion to try perhaps a Pine Tree (or even three trees to represent a forest?) on the trimount for my half-brother’s arms (cant on Silvia).  I could then change the remaining quarter to something to represent my mother for him… Clement is the name there.  So perhaps something echoing St. Clement or something implying "peace" or "tranquility" or perhaps just something generically French Canadian, although this probably the least attractive.

 

Thanks for the ideas, Joseph!  I’m open to hearing others too, if anyone else is dying to through something out!

 

Kyle=

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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15 November 2007 19:16
 

Here’s another suggestion, going in an altogether different direction:

Or a Lion rampant Gules holding in its dexter forepaw a Cross Crosslet Azure standing upon a triple Mount in base also Azure (as is more plainly depicted in the attachment)

 

The lion and cross crosslet are taken from the chief’s arms, but combined in a new way. The triple mount in base is for Boston. The image is simply: The MacLea’s coming to Boston.

 

The effect is perhaps more German than Scottish, but it could easily be differenced using bordures in the Scottish style.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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16 November 2007 20:44
 

Dohrman’s suggestion, & especially his artwork, are very nice.  However, they suggested a differenced version of "Macdonald of Keppoch" to me, though the designs are certainly not identical.

As a possible variation of the red hand holding the blue cross-crosslet fitchee—rather than the "side view" of the forearm & hand, how about rotating the arm 90 degrees & showing a red fist holding the blue cross-c-f?  Look at the crest of my arms in the armorial, showing a hand (drawn as a fist) holding a rosebranch.  (For your purposes I think you’d erase the wee bit of wrist.)

 

(By the way—after many weeks of admiring Dohrman’s beautifully simple and AFAIK utterly unique arms, the cant finally hit me…think tortoise, not hare).

 
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16 November 2007 23:29
 

Michael F. McCartney;51380 wrote:

(By the way—after many weeks of admiring Dohrman’s beautifully simple and AFAIK utterly unique arms, the cant finally hit me…think tortoise, not hare).


Thanks, Michael, for noticing. It took me a while too. I kept trying to do something with "Byers," until a Scot remarked that "byers" made him think of places full of cow manure.

 
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18 November 2007 16:21
 

I’ve been thinking for a few days of some different designs, but I really like the ones that have come out if here so far.

I personally like Dohrman Byres version the best, because it is unique displays the heritage you want it to, and has enough ties to the MacLea arms, without being the MacLea arms.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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18 November 2007 18:14
 

Linusboarder;51408 wrote:

I’ve been thinking for a few days of some different designs, but I really like the ones that have come out if here so far.

I personally like Dohrman Byres version the best, because it is unique displays the heritage you want it to, and has enough ties to the MacLea arms, without being the MacLea arms.


Unfortunately, as Mike McCartney points out, this looks like the differenced arms of MacDonnell of Keppoch (Or a lion rampant Gules).  Since Kyle is trying to design his arms in the Scottish idiom, this would not pass muster for MacLea.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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19 November 2007 11:54
 

The Keppoch arms, IIRC, also have a cross-crosslet in dexter chief—what color & whether on the field or on a canton I don’t recall, but the combination IMO definitely says (pr suggests) "Keppoch."  Too bad, because other than that (as in, "besifes that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?") it is IMO the nicest design so far, even though the least "MacLea-ish."

 
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19 November 2007 13:46
 

Michael F. McCartney;51421 wrote:

The Keppoch arms, IIRC, also have a cross-crosslet in dexter chief—what color & whether on the field or on a canton I don’t recall, but the combination IMO definitely says (pr suggests) "Keppoch."  Too bad, because other than that (as in, "besifes that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?") it is IMO the nicest design so far, even though the least "MacLea-ish."


What if the field was changed to Argent?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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19 November 2007 15:14
 

Linusboarder;51427 wrote:

What if the field was changed to Argent?


Dundas, I think, when it takes up the whole field; otherwise, as the first quarter of a quarterly shield, characteristically MacDonald.

 

That’s the problem with designing arms in the Scottish mode—everything already belongs to somebody.

 
Kyle MacLea
 
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19 November 2007 16:23
 

Sorry to not be better at putting my two cents in here, but I can see we’re running into some trouble with the Scottish arms issue.  I can see the Keppoch issue, but think the idea was a good one.  Still, probably not appropriate.

I’m at a loss for how to suggest how to proceed here, but I’m also (right now) at a loss for time.  Over the next week or so I figure we’ll all be pretty much occupied with family obligations and the like.  To this, I add some work obligations which I can’t let go any longer.

 

I’ll check in here next week to re-start discussions and see where we can go with design ideas, but it might not be till later in the week.  Just too much on the plate.

 

But in the mean time, if anyone wants to throw out more design ideas, I would love to see them… but if I don’t reply right away, please everyone know that I appreciate the ideas very much and the ideas so far very much as well.  There have been some good ones!

 

Thanks, guys!  (And not just the "Guys"—the Josephs, Mikes, Colins, Dohrmans, Jameses, etc., as well!)

 

Kyle=

 
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19 November 2007 19:15
 

Joseph McMillan;51429 wrote:

Dundas, I think, when it takes up the whole field; otherwise, as the first quarter of a quarterly shield, characteristically MacDonald.

That’s the problem with designing arms in the Scottish mode—everything already belongs to somebody.


What about Erminois? Or and Sable Barry, Bendy, Lozengy, Cheque or Pally?

 

I think an erminois field could look rather nice smile

 

EDIT: Actually not sure how this would look, with the Azure cross, but I think changing the hill color from Azure to Sable or Gulles, and making the field Barry Or and Azure could work quite nicely. It distances itself from MacDonald, and has yet another reference to the original MacLea arms (I only put a link up to make sure I was using the correct MacLea arms as a reference point.)

 

If the Blue cross contrasts poorly with the blue wavy bars, the Rampant lion could always hold an eschuton argent charged with the hand holding the cross