Thomas Jefferson

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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20 November 2007 23:26
 

I’ve put the Thomas Jefferson article up on the website at http://americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=President.Jefferson.

Comments and criticism gratefully accepted; fawning praise is unnecessary but gratifying.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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21 November 2007 11:52
 

Joe

Another outstanding essay—and, I must say, a much better representation of Jefferson’s arms than I ever expected considering the opinions (that you cite) I’ve read in the past. Thanks for working on this and the rest of the series.

 

Arian

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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21 November 2007 19:17
 

Ditto!  Its too bad you couldn’t include a photo of the engraved teapot.

I was a little confused at top of 2nd page as to just what difference there was between TJ’s arms and the Jeaffreson (sp?) arms later granted by the CoA—the Monticello page you linked didn’t specify that either.  Also it was unclear (or I was) whether the 1685 arms on the St Kitts estate map were like TJ’s or the later CoA grant, though you did appear to say farther down the page that the St Kitts arms were the same as TJ’s.

 

Minor quibbles—great job!  I especially liked your deductive reasoning re: the arms on the teapot!

 
Guy Power
 
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Guy Power
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21 November 2007 20:09
 

Joe,

I read your essay with great interest.  If I can find any images I’ll send them.  In the meantime, I found this reproduction plate:

http://www.decaturhouse.org/shop/assets/jefferson.png

 

detail:

http://www.decaturhouse.org/shop/assets/photo1.png

www.decaturhouse.org/shop/corporate.htm

 

"Thomas Jefferson elected to include his own monogram along with a stunning fleur-de-lis design in blue and gold for his White House china. An exacting reproduction of the Jefferson dessert plate captures the richness of Jefferson’s personal china design. This elegant French table service was used during Jefferson’s time in the White House."

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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21 November 2007 20:23
 

Thanks Guy and Mike.

The china probably ought to be included somehow, especially since the design is quasi-armorial.

 

I see the confusion in tracking the Suffolk and Virginia arms discussion.  I was trying to avoid going on too long and condensed too much.

 

The 1839 grant had the chief dancetty and the talbot’s head is charged with five ermine spots in saltire.  It was granted to Christopher William Jeaffreson "formerly Piggott," according to http://jeaffreson.googlepages.com/.  I would guess that means it was probably granted pursuant to a name and arms clause requiring Piggott to change his name.

 

http://jeaffreson.googlepages.com/coatofarms.jpg

If so, it’s interesting that the College of Arms imposed a difference in this case even though the basic arms were supposedly not on record at the College.  This kind of thing calls into question a lot of the theory of how the English law of arms operates, I’d say.

 

The 1682 map shows exactly the same arms as TJ used.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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22 November 2007 11:39
 

I’ve amended the essay to try and clarify the confusion noted by Mike McCartney and to mention the china pattern pointed out by Guy Power.

 
David Pritchard
 
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22 November 2007 12:28
 

Guy Power;51489 wrote:

www.decaturhouse.org/shop/corporate.htm

"Thomas Jefferson elected to include his own monogram along with a stunning fleur-de-lis design in blue and gold for his White House china. An exacting reproduction of the Jefferson dessert plate captures the richness of Jefferson’s personal china design. This elegant French table service was used during Jefferson’s time in the White House."


It would seem from what I have read that these monogrammed settings were Thomas Jefferson’s personal porcelain that he used in the Executive Mansion while President of the United States rather than all official purchase by the US Government for use by the president.

 
Guy Power
 
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22 November 2007 20:13
 

Joe,

I’ve emailed the Monticello research staff asking if it is possible to obtain a free or low-cost image of the coffee urn detailing Jefferson’s engraved coat of arms.  I’ll let you know what they say.

 

Dead link noted at footnote "Coffee Urn," at Monticello website

 

Regards,

—Guy

 
David Pritchard
 
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22 November 2007 21:04
 

A number of Thomas Jefferson’s silver serving pieces are marked with the familiar script "TJ" monogram very similar to that used on the seal that purchased in 1786. Below is an original wax seal bearing impression of his monogram and the motto REBELLION TO TYRANTS IS OBEDIENCE TO GOD.


<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2255/sealol0.gif
</div>

 

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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22 November 2007 22:31
 

David Pritchard;51509 wrote:

A number of Thomas Jefferson’s silver serving pieces are marked with the familiar script "TJ" monogram very similar to that used on the seal that purchased in 1786. Below is an original wax seal bearing impression of his monogram and the motto REBELLION TO TYRANTS IS OBEDIENCE TO GOD.


<div class=“bbcode_center” >
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2255/sealol0.gif

</div>


As mentioned in the article, the first use of this seal seems to be in 1790; the 1786 seal was the one with the arms.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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22 November 2007 22:32
 

Guy Power;51506 wrote:

Joe,

I’ve emailed the Monticello research staff asking if it is possible to obtain a free or low-cost image of the coffee urn detailing Jefferson’s engraved coat of arms. I’ll let you know what they say.

 

Dead link noted at footnote "Coffee Urn," at Monticello website

 

Regards,

—Guy


Thanks, Guy.  They would choose now to reorganize their site.  Link has been corrected:  it’s now http://explorer.monticello.org/index.html?s1=2|s3=209|s4=4_59|mp=4|tp=1

 
David Pritchard
 
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23 November 2007 14:04
 

Joseph McMillan;51513 wrote:

As mentioned in the article, the first use of this seal seems to be in 1790; the 1786 seal was the one with the arms.

According to the article posted below, the "TJ" seal was purchased in 1786 but not used until 1790: http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Jefferson’s_Seal

The image of the original seal that I posted is from the website of the University of Texas Library: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/engin/trademark/timeline/tj/tj.html

 

Could Joseph shed some light on the use of the armorial seal and the monogram seal?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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23 November 2007 15:55
 

David Pritchard;51527 wrote:

According to the article posted below, the "TJ" seal was purchased in 1786 but not used until 1790: http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Jefferson’s_Seal

The image of the original seal that I posted is from the website of the University of Texas Library: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/engin/trademark/timeline/tj/tj.html

 

Could Joseph shed some light on the use of the armorial seal and the monogram seal?


Did you read the article?

 

http://americanheraldry.org/pages/index.php?n=President.Jefferson

 

I believe the Monticello Wiki article on the seal must be in error; the seal bought in London is obviously the armorial seal that Jefferson began using a month later on treaties and other documents, as noted on another Monticello Wiki article:  http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Coat_of_Arms

 

Dumas Malone’s biography of Jefferson attests to his use of the armorial seal, not the TJ seal, during the time Jefferson was in Europe.

 

The image of the TJ seal from the U. of Texas library is from the same source as I got my image, Lossing’s Pictorial Field Book of the Revolution.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 December 2007 18:19
 

Guy Power was kind enough to contact the staff at Monticello and secure (a) photographs of the silver coffee pot with Jefferson’s arms on it, including a closeup of the arms themselves, and (b) permission for us to use the photos on our website free of charge.

I have uploaded the pictures to the article, for those interested.

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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04 December 2007 12:57
 

Joseph McMillan;51831 wrote:

Guy Power was kind enough to contact the staff at Monticello and secure (a) photographs of the silver coffee pot with Jefferson’s arms on it, including a closeup of the arms themselves, and (b) permission for us to use the photos on our website free of charge.

I have uploaded the pictures to the article, for those interested.


That’s terrific! Shouldn’t the Foundation be listed as one of the sources?

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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04 December 2007 19:41
 

They’re credited under each photo, and Monticello Explorer is their website.