Blazon question

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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28 December 2007 11:42
 

It seems like I have read on this forum (at some time in the past) the term for an ordinary (or sub-ordinary or charge) that extends all the way to the top and bottom of the shield, but I cannot find that reference again. I have found a term online (indicated in italic below) that may suffice, so please help me get the blazon correct for these arms…. smile

Shield: Vert, a barrulet dancetty per long Argent, on a chief Gules, a Celtic cross between two mullets of seven points Or.

 

Crest: a groundhog holding a sprig of long-leaf pine proper.

 

Comments on the design are welcome also. This is my first attempt at creating arms for myself.

 
 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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28 December 2007 12:19
 

I’ve never seen blazoned "a barrulet dancetty per long" and wouldn’t know how to draw one, if I had only such a blazon. I think I would blazon these arms: Vert four piles palewise throughout conjoined in chief Argent voided of the field on a chief Gules a Celtic cross between two mullets of seven points Or.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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28 December 2007 20:01
 

Fr. Byers’ approach is likely technically correct but doesn’t produce a quick, clear mental image, at least to my sometimes slow and cloudy mind.  I would prefer "a barrulett dancetty throughout of (#) points to chief and # to base"—though IM O it would be better to draw the barrulet a bit wider so it would show better in small scale or at a distance.  The "long" version is new to me and not IMO particularly useful.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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28 December 2007 22:55
 

is that a demi-groundhog or a full one? if it is full i can’t tell. if it is demi then it is OK it just needs to be called demi. unless my monitor is off somehow…let me know. smile

forgive me, but wouldn’t Vert, four piles Vert, fimbriated Argent work as well and be a shorter blazon? or am i off as well?

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 December 2007 00:21
 

Donnchadh;52710 wrote:

is that a demi-groundhog or a full one?


What is pictured would be considered a demi-groundhog—or pretty nearly, at least. The picture I copied for my draft had the groundhog sitting in tall grass. When drawn correctly, my plan is to make it a full groundhog. I also intend to add a cone to the sprig of longleaf pine.

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 December 2007 00:29
 

Michael F. McCartney;52706 wrote:

IM O it would be better to draw the barrulet a bit wider so it would show better in small scale or at a distance.

I will take this in consideration and give it a try, though my intent is to mimic the look of a rope tension drum.


Michael F. McCartney;52706 wrote:

The "long" version is new to me and not IMO particularly useful.

New to me as well. I came across this today on the Internet:


<div class=“bbcode_indent” >
From A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry by James Parker:

Dancetty per long is a term said to be used by some heralds to signify that the indentations are very deep; so deep as to be equivalent to pily.
</div>

 
 
Dohrman Byers
 
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29 December 2007 20:31
 

Donnchadh;52710 wrote:

forgive me, but wouldn’t Vert, four piles Vert, fimbriated Argent work as well and be a shorter blazon? or am i off as well?


I think one needs to say a little more. Multiple piles are often shown with their points converging ("in point"), hence "palewise" to indicate that all go straight down. Piles do not normally touch the bottom of the shield, hence "throughout." Finally, "four plies" issuant from the chief do not necessarily touch one another, hence "conjoined in chief."

 

I suppose one could blazon "Vert four piles palewise throughout conjoined in chief Vert fimbriated Argent," but the idea of piles Argent (albeit voided) on a field Vert seemed more natural than plies Vert (albeit fimbriated) on a field Vert.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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29 December 2007 22:32
 

OK good Father I appreciate it. But, I had thought that the default position was palewise and therefore no need to be so stated and only when meeting in point to be said so. I thank you for the correction.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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29 December 2007 22:36
 

Kenneth,

I like your crest as it is very Southeastern American, the Groundhog (Marmota monax) being limited to the Eastern United States (though their range in Canada is much larger) and the Long-Leaf Pine, also known as Southern Yellow Pine, being native to the the Southeastern Sates. I like the design of your base shield as it is very inventive and original, the chief however is an un-needed complication that detracts from the clear and crisp design.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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29 December 2007 23:51
 

David Pritchard;52735 wrote:

I like your crest as it is very Southeastern American, the Groundhog (Marmota monax) being limited to the Eastern United States (though their range in Canada is much larger) and the Long-Leaf Pine, also known as Southern Yellow Pine, being native to the the Southeastern Sates.


Nice to see the references to the Southeastern United States were not lost. Most of my family has been in North Carolina (Land of the Longleaf Pine) for several centuries. And while the Groundhog’s connection to the region is an extra added bonus, I was also born on Groundhog Day.

 
 
Dohrman Byers
 
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30 December 2007 14:18
 

Donnchadh;52734 wrote:

OK good Father I appreciate it. But, I had thought that the default position was palewise and therefore no need to be so stated and only when meeting in point to be said so. I thank you for the correction.


I’m not sure it’s a correction. J.P. Brooke-Little (Clarenceux) says that originally, when piles were usually long and narrow, "in point" was the default position for mutiple piles. Only later, when piles grew shorter, did it become common to blazon covergent piles as "in point." With that mixed history, I’m inclined to err on the side of precision rather than economy. The fact that these piles are also "throughout" probably makes it unlikely that one would draw them as "in point" unless that were specified. In any event, that’s why we have "as are [somewhere] more clearly depicted."

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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31 December 2007 00:11
 

oh no good Father this is a good correction. i like to make sure i have this right. smile

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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31 December 2007 10:19
 

I thought of another reason that it would make a difference whether one blazoned "piles Vert fimbriated Argent" or "piles Argent voided of the field." If these arms were ever shown in relief (carved in stone or on a signet ring), the two blazons would give different results. In relief, "piles fimbriated" would be shown with the whole triangular area of the piles (and their fimbriation) raised slightly above the surface of the shield. "Piles voided of the field," however, would show only the Argent zigzag line as raised above the surface of the shield. Which effect is desired? Since the original attempted blazon was "a barrulet dancetty…," my guess is that the design was conceived as a zigzag line, not a group of triangles, even though the blazon that describes this may work best in terms of piles.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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31 December 2007 10:29
 

A good point, Father Byers, and thank you for giving so much thought and consideration to the blazon.  Indeed, the idea is that a zigzag line run across the field, simulating the rope on a rope-tension drum.

 
 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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Stephen R. Hickman
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31 December 2007 14:16
 

Personally, I like your arms, Kenneth.  The zig-zag lines in base reminds me of icicles on a tree.  They also remind me of the emoticon ":mrgreen:".

 
PBlanton
 
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PBlanton
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01 January 2008 23:43
 

Kenneth,

First of all, let me welcome you to the AHS!  smile  Simple, yet distinctive—a good combination!

 

Finally, I agree with Fr. Byers blazon as it also conforms nicely to the idea of "no color on color or metal on metal".

 

Take care,