Blazon question

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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02 January 2008 14:54
 

Thank you all for your input on the blazon for my new arms and the positive feedback.  Now I am attempting to create a badge. Here is what I have, for the most part, settled on:

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/Badge-v2.gif

I am not sure, though, how to blazon it. My initial attempt might go something like this:

Within an annulet Or a Celtic cross Argent on a mullet of seven points Vert.

 

I also thought of replacing the Celtic cross with a similarly shaped object—a Dogwood flower—recalling my North Carolina roots (much like the items in my crest).

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/Badge-v1.gif

 

Any comments on either blazon or design would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Kenneth

 
 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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02 January 2008 15:01
 

The dogwood flower—without question the dogwood flower. Not wanting to offend anyone, but frankly I sometimes think that if I see another Celtic cross in an armorial device I’m going to scream. And I say this as someone whose putative extended family lays claim to a very fine Celtic cross at Kilmory Knap on the Kintyre peninsula:

http://lmid1.rcahms.gov.uk/scotland_screenres/458436.jpg

 

 

(Would you consider replacing the Celtic cross in your arms with a gold dogwood blossom as well?)

 

Anyway, back to the badge, unless there’s a reason for the gold ring, I’d lose it as an unnecessary complication. Just my personal opinion.

 

Hmmm…that would leave you with vegetation on the middle of star…where have we seen a badge that looked like that?:D

 
arriano
 
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arriano
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02 January 2008 16:58
 

I second Joe’s preference for the latter design with the dogwood flower. I think it’s simple, interesting and distinctive.

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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02 January 2008 18:26
 

I too like the dogwood flower, it seems more individually unique (as Joe pointed out the Celtic cross is a bit overused).

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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02 January 2008 23:17
 

I, however, and respectfully, like the Celtic Cross. I also think one can never see too many of these fine examples of the Holy Cross.

But that is me and my opinion.

 

8)

 
Madalch
 
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Madalch
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03 January 2008 00:04
 

Linusboarder;52822 wrote:

I too like the dogwood flower, it seems more individually unique (as Joe pointed out the Celtic cross is a bit overused).


Living in BC, I’d consider the dogwood flower to be overused (it’s our provincial flower, I work on Dogwood Street, and it’s one of the least appealing flowers in the area).

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 January 2008 00:13
 

Madalch;52834 wrote:

Living in BC, I’d consider the dogwood flower to be overused (it’s our provincial flower, I work on Dogwood Street, and it’s one of the least appealing flowers in the area).


It’s the state flower in Virginia as well, but I can think of only two coats of arms that include it (Prince George County and Roanoke College).  In any case, the Eastern dogwood of the US and the Pacific dogwood of BC are two different things.

 

Eastern dogwood:

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/cofl1680.jpg

 

Pacific dogwood:

http://depts.washington.edu/propplnt/Plants/cor1.jpg

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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03 January 2008 14:52
 

Donnchadh;52829 wrote:

I, however, and respectfully, like the Celtic Cross. I also think one can never see too many of these fine examples of the Holy Cross. But that is me and my opinion.


Thirty years ago I may have favoured the Celtic cross over the dogwood flower as a charge but the Celtic cross is today overused and commonplace. It is a tired symbol of last resort for the person of Irish descent to use when they can think of nothing better with which to represent themselves.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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03 January 2008 15:00
 

kmansfield;52815 wrote:

I also thought of replacing the Celtic cross with a similarly shaped object—a Dogwood flower—recalling my North Carolina roots (much like the items in my crest).

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/Badge-v1.gif


Again, I prefer the dogwood flower over the tired Celtic cross which now finds itself commonly tattooed on the skin of tens of thousands of long term residents of state prisons. I might suggest removing the ring around the star as it makes the badge look like a door logo for a North Carolina park ranger.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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03 January 2008 17:19
 

It seems there is somewhat of a preference for the Dogwood flower over the Celtic cross, which I believe is my preference as well.


Joseph McMillan;52816 wrote:

(Would you consider replacing the Celtic cross in your arms with a gold dogwood blossom as well?)


I am quite happy with the arms as they are. I have been thinking off and on about creating arms for myself since I was a regular reader of rec.heraldry some 10 or 15 years ago. I didn’t do much in the way of designing them until recently, but what I’ve got really speaks to me graphically and is significant in meaning.


Joseph McMillan;52816 wrote:

Anyway, back to the badge, unless there’s a reason for the gold ring, I’d lose it as an unnecessary complication. Just my personal opinion.

David Pritchard;52842 wrote:

I might suggest removing the ring around the star as it makes the badge look like a door logo for a North Carolina park ranger.


Much as the voided piles are meant to represent the side of a rope-tension drum, the annulet evokes - for me - the idea of the rim of a drum. I could perhaps go with a roundlet Argent (a drum head), but I’ll have to put several versions on the refrigerator and see what I think in a few days.

 

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/Badge-comparison.gif

 

North Carolina park rangers should be so lucky. (And aren’t badges simply early logos, after all?)

 
 
Madalch
 
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Madalch
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03 January 2008 17:37
 

Joseph McMillan;52836 wrote:

It’s the state flower in Virginia as well, but I can think of only two coats of arms that include it (Prince George County and Roanoke College).


Some Canadian examples are listed here:

http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/reg-search-adv.asp?results=1&SearchLang=EN&lang=e&LastnameOrg=&FirstName=&RecipientTypeID=&PSCode=&Gender=&RegSectionID=&RegVolume=&RegPage=&PatentStart=mm/dd/yyyy&PatentEnd=mm/dd/yyyy&ProjectTypeID=&Creator=&PainterID=&CalligrapherID=&ElementID=&TypeArmBearings=&GazetteStart=mm/dd/yyyy&GazetteEnd=mm/dd/yyyy&ChargeTypeID=&Charge=dogwood&ChargeColourID=&Attribute=&FieldColourID=&Motto=&npp=25


Quote:

In any case, the Eastern dogwood of the US and the Pacific dogwood of BC are two different things.

Not very different, from a heraldic perspective.  At least in my non-botanically-appreciative point of view.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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03 January 2008 19:10
 

Well, one has four petals and the other has six.  Less than that suffices to differentiate quatrefoils and cinquefoils.

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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03 January 2008 20:19
 

I hadn’t realized that there was such a pronounced difference between the two varieties—which is an admission against interest for an old geezer with Kentucky roots and Canadian inlaws.  I would assume (now anyway) that it would be necessary to specify which dogwood blossom in one’s blazon.

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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04 January 2008 03:25
 

Quote:

Thirty years ago I may have favoured the Celtic cross over the dogwood flower as a charge but the Celtic cross is today overused and commonplace. It is a tired symbol of last resort for the person of Irish descent to use when they can think of nothing better with which to represent themselves.

My good friend David, I am … taken aback by this. I must be reading it wrong. I am sorry if I am. But, I will offer my opinion anyway … for what it is worth.

On the one hand, the Irish High Cross, or the Celtic Cross, is more than simply a ‘lucky charms’ symbol one chooses as a last resort due to one being “Irish” or “Scottish” or “Welsh,” etc. The history of this/these crosses surpasses anything a dogwood flower could ever do. It is at the same time cultural, religious and historical and it therefore identifies one’s faith, race and history in a way precious few symbols can. The flower, usually, is not such a creature.

 

Then there is the fact that these crosses have been in existence for centuries upon centuries upon centuries … even when the rest of Europe had fallen into the dark ages with the collapse of the Roman Empire and the destruction of the Germanic hordes over most of Europe. 30 years ago is but a blip compared to this. Trends of one kind or another of 30 years, 20 years, 10 years, or 5 years, therefore means precious little to the glory of the Celtic Cross in its antiquity and impact on a people and thereby an extension of Western Civilization, or symbol of ancient history.

 

Not to mention that the Celtic Cross speaks to a particular style of faith. For Irish Catholics – since I can’t speak for non-Irish or non-Catholics – this supercedes (sp?) any contemporary, social popularity contest, or, trend chic. It says I am of these ancient people and that these people kept Christianity alive in Europe when Europe was little more than a dung pile following the destruction at the hands of conquering Germans. It says I am of the faith-tradition of Patrick, Brigid and Colmcille going all the way back to the early 5th century and onwards.

 

These crosses represent not only the faith one adheres to (whatever form of Christianity it is), or the connection to the ancient peoples who provided modern civilization with its salvation after such darkness following the fall of Rome, or of the cultural form of Christianity, but all three in a way no other symbol can. That is important to some of us – certainly to me and is why I chose to use it in heraldry and that is, in my not so humble opinion, very good heraldry!

 

For me, that is far more important than a pretty flower … no matter how attractive it is. Now the key is what the armiger to be wants to say by his arms/badge. If it something connected to this flower than that should be it plain and simple. However, if it is more, as in why I myself employed the Irish High Cross in my arms for example (ref above), then it is certainly far more important than mere contemporary attitudes on what is “in” and what is “out” or what is “overdone” or what is not.

 

So, in the end it should be a matter of what the client/armiger to be wants to say that is of concrete/rock solid importance to him/her more-so than what is used and in what numbers. Heraldry should always be about far more than simply trying to find the newest, less used symbol, which is OK too, in order to seem unique, or fresh. If there is anything I’ve learned in art it is that it always comes full circle and what is in now will be out soon enough and then back around later as in again. If one designs his arms/badges with an eye to what is trendy then there isn’t really much one can say for his arms decades down the line when it isn’t so trendy anymore and the client finds himself wondering why he chose these arms to begin with.

 

I must confess that I often wonder why one never hears people complain about the rose, the lion passant (guardant or no) or rampant, the plain cross, a bend, a fess, a border, a pale, a pile, a chevron, etc ad nauseum that are used/seen in far more instances than the Irish High Cross/Celtic Cross? In truth it reminds me of the complaints we read when harps were being used in arms … yet there are relatively few of those little do-dads – just like a Celtic Cross – compared to the vast numbers/examples these other everyday/mainstay charges/ordinaries I just mentioend. I just wonder why people gripe (probably wrong word) about things like harps and Celtic Crosses but don’t about other far more common symbols.

 

OK off my soap-box … feel free to take it and burn it. wink

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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04 January 2008 06:49
 

For what it’s worth, there’s a legend or folk tale associating the (Eastern) dogwood blossom with the cross. Each of the four petals has a slightly ragged notch on its outside edge, which normally show a rust-red stain. This is attributed by those who believe the legend to the cross of Jesus’ crucifixion having been made of dogwood; the holes rimmed with reddish-brown commemorate the bloodstains on the cross.  I’m sure I’m leaving something out, and I’ve never been entirely sure if these was a genuine folk tale or something concocted by the tourist industry to sell postcards of dogwood blossoms with doggerel (no pun intended) verse on the back.  Nevertheless, it’s well enough established, at least in the southern states of the Atlantic coast, to make the dogwood blossom a useful religious allusion.

If the blossom is displayed with the petals crosswise, the resemblance to a cross is obvious, as in the arms of Prince George County, VA (devised in 1976 by the College of Arms):

 

http://www.ngw.nl/int/usa/images/princege.jpg

 

(I think the crest, with the anchor of hope, is probably an allusion to Merchant’s Hope, one of the first settlements in what is now Prince George County and the site of a very pretty little country church, founded in 1657 with the current building built in 1743, which is one of the oldest church buildings still in active use in the US.)