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Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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04 January 2008 10:31
 

When following a link from a thread under Foreign Arms, I saw the image below. Is the charge in the 2nd and 3rd quarters a crude (as in simple) Celtic Cross or something else? It’s been a while since I have gotten all my books out, so please forgive me if this is a ridiculous question.

http://www.heraldik.org/vbnrulle/billedvbn/skydstofte_jorgen.stor.gif

 
 
Michael Swanson
 
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Michael Swanson
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04 January 2008 11:50
 

kmansfield;52857 wrote:

When following a link from a thread under Foreign Arms, I saw the image below. Is the charge in the 2nd and 3rd quarters a crude (as in simple) Celtic Cross or something else? It’s been a while since I have gotten all my books out, so please forgive me if this is a ridiculous question.


In Germanic and Nordic culture, this is a Sun Cross, an Odin’s Cross, or a Solar Wheel, representing the solstices.

 

I don’t think it is Christian, though it is similar to the Consecration Cross but without the pattee arms.

 
werewolves
 
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werewolves
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04 January 2008 12:15
 

Donnchadh;52854 wrote:

I must confess that I often wonder why one never hears people complain about the rose, the lion passant (guardant or no) or rampant, the plain cross, a bend, a fess, a border, a pale, a pile, a chevron, etc ad nauseum that are used/seen in far more instances than the Irish High Cross/Celtic Cross? In truth it reminds me of the complaints we read when harps were being used in arms … yet there are relatively few of those little do-dads – just like a Celtic Cross – compared to the vast numbers/examples these other everyday/mainstay charges/ordinaries I just mentioend. I just wonder why people gripe (probably wrong word) about things like harps and Celtic Crosses but don’t about other far more common symbols.


Well spoken!  Thanks for defending those of us with the "tired" old Celtic cross in our arms/crest. wink

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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04 January 2008 14:26
 

Donnchadh;52854 wrote:

I must confess that I often wonder why one never hears people complain about the rose, the lion passant (guardant or no) or rampant, the plain cross, a bend, a fess, a border, a pale, a pile, a chevron, etc ad nauseum that are used/seen in far more instances than the Irish High Cross/Celtic Cross? In truth it reminds me of the complaints we read when harps were being used in arms … yet there are relatively few of those little do-dads – just like a Celtic Cross – compared to the vast numbers/examples these other everyday/mainstay charges/ordinaries I just mentioend. I just wonder why people gripe (probably wrong word) about things like harps and Celtic Crosses but don’t about other far more common symbols.


Denny,

 

Personally I do complain about the rose and lion passant guardant—and about the thistle, leek, red dragon, black eagle, and fleur-de-lis—when they are used the way the shamrock, harp, and Celtic cross are normally used. I don’t think that cliched symbols of the national origins of one’s ancestors make for inspired heraldry, no matter where they came from.

 

But that’s not main reason I dislike the Celtic cross as a charge. To me, heraldic charges all fall somewhere on two axes. Think of the X axis as frequency of appearance and the Y axis as traditionality, if there is such a word. I think the ideal is a direct relationship. The most frequently seen heraldic designs should be the most traditional, while the least traditional, most innovative, should be the least frequent. To give an example: I can see an endless series of riffs of chevrons—engrailed, inverted, braced, charged, diminished, paly, barry, etc.—without feeling there are too many chevrons. Conversely, I can see a coat of arms with one wombat and think hey, that’s pretty clever and original. But if every other person adopting arms then catches onto the wombat trend, and thus every other coat of arms has a wombat on it, I’m going to say, "Jeez, I’m sure tired of wombats," in a way that I wouldn’t get tired of chevrons.

 

The Celtic cross, to me, has come to be a something on the order of my hypothetical wombat. It isn’t, as far as I can tell, a traditional heraldic charge, even in Ireland. At some point a few decades ago, it would have been original and therefore refreshing, possibly meaningful. But now it is neither traditional nor original—simply ubiquitous.

 

One other reservation I have is that heraldic design (on the shield, I mean) is essentially supposed to be two-dimensional.  Even though in practice many heraldic artists—and perhaps most of those trained in the British style—use a considerable amount of molding and texture, the shield is still ultimately supposed to be a flat surface. But the Celtic cross, in my opinion, is essentially solid and three dimensional; without the carving, the essence of the cross is lost.  Perhaps in a way, that makes the Celtic cross sort of anti-heraldic. I’m not sure I’m articulating that thought very well.

 

So while the Irish may have historical grievances a-plenty, please don’t add my distaste for the excessive heraldic use of Celtic crosses, shamrocks, and harps to the list! wink

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
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04 January 2008 16:50
 

Joseph, you did leave something out of the dogwood folklore.  According to legend, the dogwood was originally a very large tree, comparable to, say, an oak or cedar.  When the species learned that one of them were used to make the beams of Jesus’ cross, they were so upset that they stopped growing to such large statures to prevent being used in that way ever again.  As you stated before, their flowers reflect the sacrifice that Jesus made on a dogwood.  At least, that’s the legend which was passed down to me.

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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04 January 2008 19:35
 

Please feel free to ignore the shield directly above this post, especially the charges in chief.  rolleyes

 
Linusboarder
 
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04 January 2008 22:47
 

WBHenry;52873 wrote:

Please feel free to ignore the shield directly above this post, especially the charges in chief.  rolleyes


Did you pick Celtic for Irish background or your religious beliefs (or both)? I do not remember

 
David Pritchard
 
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04 January 2008 23:18
 

kmansfield;52857 wrote:

When following a link from a thread under Foreign Arms, I saw the image below. Is the charge in the 2nd and 3rd quarters a crude (as in simple) Celtic Cross or something else?


To me it is the quality hallmark of the Silversmith’s Guild of the City of Revel, now Tallinn, the capital of Estonia and one time member city of the Hanseatic League.

 

 
David Pritchard
 
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04 January 2008 23:24
 

Donnchadh;52854 wrote:

My good friend David, I am … taken aback by this. I must be reading it wrong. I am sorry if I am. But, I will offer my opinion anyway … for what it is worth.


I associate the Celtic cross not with religion but rather hoodlums, ruffians and other low lifes who sport the Celtic cross on their clothing or flesh as if it were a gang symbol. I am actually glad that you do not have the same mental associations as it means that you have had no prolonged encounters with your local white trash.

 

 
Madalch
 
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04 January 2008 23:36
 

David Pritchard;52877 wrote:

I associate the Celtic cross not with religion but rather hoodlums, ruffians and other low lifes who sport the Celtic cross on their clothing or flesh as if it were a gang symbol.

I think the term you’re looking for is "hooligan".
Quote:

I am actually glad that you do not have the same mental associations as it means that you have had no prolonged encounters with your local white trash.

Why assume that the local hooligans near Donnchadh are similar to those near you?

ETA:  I feel I ought to add that I know a number of people with Celtic-motifed tattoos that I would certianly not consider to be trash, white or otherwise.

 
Linusboarder
 
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05 January 2008 01:38
 

Rev. Henry-

The celtic cross makes me thing of my old roommate, whom has a Celtic cross tatoo (along with other much less attractive tattoos.) , and he is also "local white trash" (not my words) and when Ilived with him he lived in Denny’s neck of the woods.

 

So it’s hard not to make the association.

 

But in defense of the Celtic cross for a moment, in heraldry I actually see it less that I thought. While the Celtic cross does seem to be everywhere, ESPECIALLY in tattoos (I think my sister even has one and we supposedly have Orange Irish ancestry, not Celtic Irish no that’s not what the Tenne is for.. I Digress) I think it looks quite good in arms since Arms are novel enough among the general population that it’s difficult in the states to have much "pop-arms"

 

I hope that gets the point across

 

Back to the main subject, I prefer the

 
David Pritchard
 
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05 January 2008 03:56
 

Madalch;52880 wrote:

I think the term you’re looking for is "hooligan".


I meant hoodlum, maybe this word is not used in Canada.

 

Hoodlum, n.

1. A gangster; a thug.

2. A tough, often aggressive or violent youth

 
Donnchadh
 
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07 January 2008 18:06
 

Quote:

For what it’s worth, there’s a legend or folk tale associating the (Eastern) dogwood blossom with the cross.

I did not know this. Thanks Joe for the info. This is good heraldry then and I would put it on a par with the Celtic Cross where I didn’t before. wink

 

Colin, I think your personal experience is probably why I think it ultimately comes down to one’s life experiences. For my part, if I were you, and remember I am a Hibernain and I take oaths I made very seriously, if I ever met a man who disrespected the Celtic Cross intentionally by sporting it like your roomy did I would, sadly, but probably wind up getting into it with him a bit. For me, if he is Irish he should know better, and if he does not, I will inform him, and if he rejected it, then I would reject him so to speak. Not only to fullfill my oath/obligation to defend and infrom on things impacting/reflecting on the Irish, but because it is people who act like that who apparently have given you and David a bad, wrong impression of the Celtic Cross IMPO.

 
Linusboarder
 
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07 January 2008 20:46
 

Donnchadh;52933 wrote:

Colin, I think your personal experience is probably why I think it ultimately comes down to one’s life experiences. For my part, if I were you, and remember I am a Hibernain and I take oaths I made very seriously, if I ever met a man who disrespected the Celtic Cross intentionally by sporting it like your roomy did I would, sadly, but probably wind up getting into it with him a bit. For me, if he is Irish he should know better, and if he does not, I will inform him, and if he rejected it, then I would reject him so to speak. Not only to fullfill my oath/obligation to defend and infrom on things impacting/reflecting on the Irish, but because it is people who act like that who apparently have given you and David a bad, wrong impression of the Celtic Cross IMPO.


Well i was more noticing the coincidence. His last name is O’Donnell and he is, in fact, of Irish heritage. I think a lot of people are proud of their heritage and want something simple to show that heritage without putting too much thought into it, so they choose the Celtic cross. It doesn’t diminish the Celtic Cross You or Rev. Henry use, as you guys obviously have given your a great deal of thought.

 

It’s like any cliché, there are times when it is completely appropriate (like your guyses arms) but others have used it so much, a lot of times with great ignorance, and so the real meaning can get lost and it can easily be viewed with an eye of cynicism.

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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07 January 2008 22:27
 

Linusboarder;52875 wrote:

Did you pick Celtic for Irish background or your religious beliefs (or both)? I do not remember


Both.  (The rest of this is because posts must have ten characters.)