Blazon question

 
WBHenry
 
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WBHenry
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07 January 2008 22:29
 

Linusboarder;52883 wrote:

Rev. Henry-

The celtic cross makes me thing of my old roommate, whom has a Celtic cross tatoo (along with other much less attractive tattoos.) , and he is also "local white trash" (not my words) and when Ilived with him he lived in Denny’s neck of the woods.  So it’s hard not to make the association.


I believe you should be responding to David, not me.  :cool:

 
Linusboarder
 
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Linusboarder
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07 January 2008 23:42
 

Yes of course

 
Patrick Williams
 
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Patrick Williams
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09 January 2008 10:06
 

WBHenry;52873 wrote:

Please feel free to ignore the shield directly above this post, especially the charges in chief.  rolleyes


No problem, Weebs, we already ignore it as often as we possibly can. wink

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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09 January 2008 12:06
 

At the risk of seeming irreverant (who, me??) the use of celtic crosses, or other cultural or religious icons, in heraldic designs is a bit like the use of curry powder in Indian restaurants.  In some cases, it is used thoughtfully and sparingly to enhance the flavor of dishes that would probably be quite good even without it.  In other cases it is slathered on mindlessly to mask overcooked food that is otherwise not very imaginative or appetizing—thus giving curry a bit of a bad name among those who haven’t had the pleasure of experiencing the better examples. (Or substitute your own most conflicted culinary seasoning and ethnic cuisine—I just couldn’t think of a good Irish example.)

 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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09 January 2008 12:40
 

Quote:

I just couldn’t think of a good Irish example.)

LOL Mike, maybe irreverent, but funny none-the-less.

I can. There are three seasonings that dominate Irish cooking – bay leaf, parsley and thyme – oft called ‘the Irish trinity’. Garlic is next. I love to cook and I love Irish food. smile And the same can be said of these in masking bad dishes by poor cooks/chefs in the Irish culinary tradition, which is, regardless of popular opinion, quite good…if you like fresh, wholesome and hearty, or light, foods.

 
werewolves
 
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werewolves
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09 January 2008 16:18
 

I feel compelled to ring in on this one.


Joseph McMillan;52865 wrote:

One other reservation I have is that heraldic design (on the shield, I mean) is essentially supposed to be two-dimensional.  Even though in practice many heraldic artists—and perhaps most of those trained in the British style—use a considerable amount of molding and texture, the shield is still ultimately supposed to be a flat surface. But the Celtic cross, in my opinion, is essentially solid and three dimensional; without the carving, the essence of the cross is lost.  Perhaps in a way, that makes the Celtic cross sort of anti-heraldic. I’m not sure I’m articulating that thought very well.

I am entirely confused by this statement.  A Celtic cross at its simplest a cross with a circle behind the head.

http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/s/P/2/cross4.jpg

This is an exceedingly simple and clear (and IMHO beautiful) design that is immediately identifiable in two dimensions.  I fail to see how it is any less "heraldic" (or for that matter less overused) that any of the extremely minor variations on the basic cross that are common to heraldry.

Quick, without looking it up.  Which is Patonce?

http://www.bozzle.com/ImagesHeraldic/xMoline.gifhttp://www.bozzle.com/ImagesHeraldic/xPatonce.gif

I’m sure that’s an easy one for many here, but IMHO the Celtic cross is far more recognizable, especially across the proverbial battlefield.


David Pritchard;52877 wrote:

I associate the Celtic cross not with religion but rather hoodlums, ruffians and other low lifes who sport the Celtic cross on their clothing or flesh as if it were a gang symbol. I am actually glad that you do not have the same mental associations as it means that you have had no prolonged encounters with your local white trash.


All the more reason to use it properly!  Why allow a minor sub-group of American society to bar the usage of a symbol.  That’s like telling Catholics to stop using the crucifix because it is tattooed (and FAR more frequently than the Celtic cross on white trash, I might add) on the backs of Latino (and other) gang members.

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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12 January 2008 11:56
 

Joseph McMillan;52865 wrote:

One other reservation I have is that heraldic design (on the shield, I mean) is essentially supposed to be two-dimensional.  Even though in practice many heraldic artists—and perhaps most of those trained in the British style—use a considerable amount of molding and texture, the shield is still ultimately supposed to be a flat surface. But the Celtic cross, in my opinion, is essentially solid and three dimensional; without the carving, the essence of the cross is lost.  Perhaps in a way, that makes the Celtic cross sort of anti-heraldic.


I think we have all gotten used to seeing Celtic crosses that have been "done up" with knotwork, but at its simplest form it is a two-dimensional charge like any other. Making Celtic crosses fancy is no different than diapering the shield, though I admit it is done more often.

 

From The Oxford Guide to Heraldry by Thomas Woodcock, Somerset Herald, and John Martin Robinson, Fitzalan Pursuivant Extraordinary:

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/CelticCrossOxford.gif

 

From Basic Heraldry by Stephen Friar and John Ferguson:

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/CelticCrossFriar.gif

 

And finally from An Heraldic Alphabet by J.P. Brooke-Little, Clarenceux King of Arms:

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/CelticCrossBrookeLittle.gif

 

Brooke-Little adds, "By a decision of the kings of arms made in 1956 two varieties of cross are blazoned as ‘a celtic cross’. These are as illustrated."

 
 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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12 January 2008 12:27
 

Of the Celtic cross:
David Pritchard;52841 wrote:

It is a tired symbol of last resort for the person of Irish descent to use when they can think of nothing better with which to represent themselves.


It took me a long time to decide if I should be insulted by David’s statement, but in the end and with more time on the boards I decided not.

 

I am most certain that I must have some Irish ancestry, though no genealogical research has yielded definitive proof. I certainly have Scottish and Scots-Irish ancestry. In point of fact, though, I chose the Celtic cross because I like it. It is more or less the combination of a Christian cross and a sun cross (or Native American medicine wheel), which perfectly represents my heritage. And my extended family, with the exception of the Quakers, is largely Presbyterian—reference below the Presbyterian Cross sanctioned by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs for placement on government headstones and markers. Pretty darn close, huh? I suppose I could have gone with a cross bottony or flory and even put a circle around the middle, but the simplicity of the Celtic cross seemed to go more nicely with the mullets of seven points graphically.

 

http://www.hectorcito.com/heraldry/Presbyterian-Cross.gif

 

Also, I have been a drummer for most of my life. That’s how I came to use the voided piles to mimic a rope tension drum. When I got too old to play in punk rock bands, I looked for other pursuits and now play snare drum in a Scottish pipe band. Another obvious Celtic connection. :cool:

 
 
Donnchadh
 
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Donnchadh
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13 January 2008 00:17
 

Kevin, I agree with your argument/POV. I think your post was concise and very well put together.

Kenneth, I’m glad you did not decide to take David’s comments as an insult. I wouldn’t get upset by David’s comment. Knowing David for a little while I have learned that what may appear as an insult is not necessarily what was meant – I myself made this mistake once. I know David a little bit by private emails and phone conversations and I know with certainty that he is not one to not appreciate a holy image, including the Holy Cross, at all. I think, rather, this is, like Colin’s above, an opinion born out of his personal experience with people who had such an holy icon tattooed on them while they were in point of fact thugs. I think this is David’s opinion though I may well be wrong and he will certainly correct me as needed. smile

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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13 January 2008 03:10
 

kmansfield;53086 wrote:

It took me a long time to decide if I should be insulted by David’s statement, but in the end and with more time on the boards I decided not.


You made the correct choice in this matter. What I was trying to convey to you is that with more thought and some ingenuity, one can find a symbol (of lesser use) that can communicate what it is that you want to express.

 
ninest123
 
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09 October 2018 23:31
 

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