USS New York

 
gselvester
 
Avatar
 
 
gselvester
Total Posts:  2683
Joined  11-05-2004
 
 
 
01 March 2008 19:21
 

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7829/ussnewyorkxm7.jpg

The arms of the newly-christened amphibious assault ship USS New York. This ship is unique in that some of the metal used in constructing the ship is from the ruined World Trade Center destroyed on September 11, 2001. This is reflected in the coat of arms.

 
MohamedHossam
 
Avatar
 
 
MohamedHossam
Total Posts:  967
Joined  03-12-2006
 
 
 
01 March 2008 20:04
 

The phoenix is a very appropriate and attractive symbol.

Regards,

 
Stephen R. Hickman
 
Avatar
 
 
Stephen R. Hickman
Total Posts:  700
Joined  01-12-2006
 
 
 
02 March 2008 01:28
 

I agree with Mohamed.  The phoenix could not be more appropriate.  The same is true of the twin towers rendered, as well as the motto.

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
Avatar
 
 
Daniel C. Boyer
Total Posts:  1104
Joined  16-03-2005
 
 
 
02 March 2008 09:40
 

Stephen R. Hickman;54881 wrote:

I agree with Mohamed.  The phoenix could not be more appropriate.  The same is true of the twin towers rendered, as well as the motto.


In complete agreement, with the qualification that I hope that they are blazoned as "pallets retrait cendrée" as I think this allusion to the towers would be the best approach.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
02 March 2008 09:53
 

Daniel C. Boyer;54884 wrote:

In complete agreement, with the qualification that I hope that they are blazoned as "pallets retrait cendrée" as I think this allusion to the towers would be the best approach.


"Cendrée" strikes me as having unfortunately macabre overtones in this context.  If one must use French terms, then I think "acier" (steel colored) would be a better choice.  Personally, I would favor just saying "gray."

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
Avatar
 
 
Daniel C. Boyer
Total Posts:  1104
Joined  16-03-2005
 
 
 
02 March 2008 13:57
 

Joseph McMillan;54885 wrote:

"Cendrée" strikes me as having unfortunately macabre overtones in this context.  If one must use French terms, then I think "acier" (steel colored) would be a better choice.  Personally, I would favor just saying "gray."


Gray isn’t really as accepted a heraldic tincture as cendrée is, and at any rate, though you are certainly correct as to how macabre the blazon would be, the blazon should attempt to get the right appearance in preference to concern about allusions, but acier is more of an aspect of or type of proper in how it is used, which is questionable as concerns the chevronel which is apparently of the same tincture.  Then again, the pallets and chevronel might be a little light for cendrée (does anyone else have a better idea of this?).  "Grisatre" is a possibility here.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
02 March 2008 20:06
 

Daniel C. Boyer;54888 wrote:

Gray isn’t really as accepted a heraldic tincture.


Neither is cendree, not really.  But we’ve been through this all before.

 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
Avatar
 
 
Daniel C. Boyer
Total Posts:  1104
Joined  16-03-2005
 
 
 
03 March 2008 11:01
 

Joseph McMillan;54900 wrote:

Neither is cendree, not really.  But we’ve been through this all before.


Not really.  Cendree is listed as a tincture in a number of books, and appeared in a very, very few arms at a period predating any notion of "gray" as a heraldic tincture.  And I’m not really sure that cendree should be used for grey in general as it would seem to suggest a darker colour than grey would, but actual depictions would be more helpful in this regard than any theory of mine—bleu celeste tends to be lighter than the name would suggest, for example.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
Avatar
 
 
Joseph McMillan
Total Posts:  7658
Joined  08-06-2004
 
 
 
03 March 2008 11:36
 

But how often did it appear in arms other than as a description of a naturally ash-gray object? It’s easy to troll through Rietstap and similar collections of blazons collecting various words that could be interpreted as tincture designations (carnation and acier come to mind) but that are not listed among the heraldic tinctures by French or other Continental heraldic writers. My conclusion from a fairly light examination is that such terms show up mainly as a more precise term for what we would call "proper" to describe something in its natural colors. Thus French heralds would blazon the hand in my crest as un main de carnation, but I don’t think any French heraldry text would list carnation as a heraldic tincture. In other words, no carnation fields or ordinaries or conventional heraldic charges like fleurs-de-lis.

There are a very, very few isolated cases in which such non-standard tinctures are used for fields and ordinaries, such as the case cited by Woodward of a Bavarian family named Ashua which bore "Cendrée, a mount of three coupeaux in base or," cendrée obviously being a pun on the name. But it makes no sense to extrapolate these extremely rare if not unique occurrences into a general rule that accepts cendrée a recognized heraldic tincture but refuses to admit the plain English "gray."

 
George Lucki
 
Avatar
 
 
George Lucki
Total Posts:  644
Joined  21-11-2004
 
 
 
03 March 2008 14:18
 

Joseph,

And yet, cendree has been used as a heraldic tincture. It is infrequent but it has been used and it is not ambigious. The only objection seems to be to avoid a macabre allusion to what was ultimately a macabre event. If it were simply a plain English isuue we would drop Azure for Blue, Gules for red, etc. and use plain language to blason things and yet for reasons of custom and perhaps for clarity we stick to the historical language even when it is arcane.

Daniel,

I like your blazon. The symbolism is excellent.

 
PBlanton
 
Avatar
 
 
PBlanton
Total Posts:  808
Joined  06-11-2005
 
 
 
06 March 2008 03:13
 

I agree that the phoenix is perfect symbolism for the 9-11 tragedy. However, to avoid the cendree and ash-grey connotations, what about describing the towers and chevron as Eisen or Gris?  Gris may be better suited since it is considered a fur and therefore not a violation of the dreaded "tincture rule" and can safely reside between Azure and Argent.

Take care,

 
 
Daniel C. Boyer
 
Avatar
 
 
Daniel C. Boyer
Total Posts:  1104
Joined  16-03-2005
 
 
 
06 March 2008 15:36
 

PBlanton;55016 wrote:

I agree that the phoenix is perfect symbolism for the 9-11 tragedy. However, to avoid the cendree and ash-grey connotations, what about describing the towers and chevron as Eisen or Gris?  Gris may be better suited since it is considered a fur and therefore not a violation of the dreaded "tincture rule" and can safely reside between Azure and Argent.

Take care,


Gris is not a fur.  And the rule of tincture doesn’t prohibit anything from being between something and something else, only on it.

 
PBlanton
 
Avatar
 
 
PBlanton
Total Posts:  808
Joined  06-11-2005
 
 
 
06 March 2008 17:45
 

Daniel C. Boyer wrote:

Gris is not a fur.

It is my understanding that the heraldic term “gris” described the grey fur of the marten. Another similar term, “petit-gris”, refers specifically to the grey squirrel (which, incidentally, is also the same animal that gave us the Azure/Argent combination of vair).


Daniel C. Boyer wrote:

And the rule of tincture doesn’t prohibit anything from being between something and something else, only on it.

Sheesh! Let me rephrase…Gris can safely reside upon both Azure and Argent. Since the towers and chevron are upon both Azure and Argent (the chevron effectively separating both colors), it would be useful to blazon the towers and chevron as a neutral tincture (fur), therefore my suggestion of Gris. Eisen (iron), being a metal, would be a violation of the strict traditionalist “metal on metal” as would cendreé (dark grey), being a color, be a violation of “color on color”.


Daniel C. Boyer wrote:

Gray isn’t really as accepted a heraldic tincture.

You are right, gray is not a heraldically accepted tincture. Grey is, though. Gray is another name for a badger and not a tincture. Grey, according to Parker’s Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry, applies to a hair color. Furthermore, grey (and gris) has been used previously as a tincture in US military heraldry (just as some other previously non-heraldic colors such as blue celeste and buff), and therefore has a US military precedence to follow.

Take care,

 
 
Michael F. McCartney
 
Avatar
 
 
Michael F. McCartney
Total Posts:  3535
Joined  24-05-2004
 
 
 
06 March 2008 21:41
 

Let’s remember that this is a naval vessel which will house hundreds of sailors.  They will all understand "gray" but how many will know, or be able to spell or pronounce, or care to use, such an obscure foreign word?

 
ninest123
 
Avatar
 
 
ninest123
Total Posts:  1703
Joined  29-06-2017
 
 
 
25 July 2018 11:08
 

20180725xiaoke         qwgqwgwqgwgwg
http://www.michaelkorshandbags-outlets.us.com
http://www.pandora.net.co
http://www.salomonshoess.us.com
http://www.jordanshoeswholesale.us.com
http://www.poloralphlaurenshop.us.com
http://www.pololaurenoutlet.us.com
http://www.coachoutletstorecoach.us.com
http://www.armaniexchange.us.org
http://www.supreme-clothing.org.uk
http://www.ubiqshoes.us
http://www.coachoutletonlineco.us.com
http://www.guccihandbags.us.org
http://www.burberryoutletsale.us.org
http://www.truereligion-jeanssale.us.com
http://www.michael-korsoutletuk.me.uk
http://www.newbalanceshoes.in.net
http://www.michaelkorsoutletmacy.us.com
http://www.yeezyboost350sale.us.com
http://www.outletcoachoutlets.us.com
http://www.canadagooseoutletgoose.us.com
http://www.pandoracharmssaleclearance.org.uk
http://www.malone-souliers.us.com
http://www.moncler-jackets.co.uk
http://www.fitflopsoutletsale.com
http://www.cheapjordansonline.us.com
http://www.long-champhandbags.us.com
http://www.basketballjerseys.us.org
http://www.coachfactoryoutlet-clearance.us.com
http://www.fit-flopssaleclearance.us.com
http://www.truereligionjeansoutlets.us.com
http://www.polooutletclearance.us.com
http://www.toryburch-outletsale.us.com
http://www.coachfactoryoutletstores.us.org
http://www.nikestorenike.org.uk
http://www.supreme.us.org
http://www.michaelkorshandbagss.us.com
http://www.alifeclothing.us.com
http://76ers.nbajerseysstore.us.com
http://www.uggsoutletsclearances.us.com
http://www.fingerlingsmonkeys.us
http://www.keen.us.com
http://www.outlettruereligion.in.net
http://www.denverbroncosjerseys.org
http://www.uggsboots.ca
http://clippers.nbajerseysstore.us.com
http://www.cheapjordansoutlet.in.net
http://www.freshjiveclothing.us
http://www.adidascrazy.us.com
http://www.oakleysunglasses-clearance.us.com
http://www.furlahandbags.us.com
http://www.true-religionjeanssale.us.com
http://www.burberryoutletinc.us.com
http://www.adidas-uk.me.uk
http://www.coachfactory-outlets.us.org
http://www.michaelkorsoutlet-stores.us.com
http://www.pandorajewelrystore.com
http://www.airjordan3.us
http://www.pandoracharmsoutlets.us.com
http://www.guccioutletsonline.us.org
http://www.footballshirtsuk.org.uk
http://www.airmax90uk.me.uk
http://www.adidasoutlet-stores.us.com
http://www.adidassoccershoes.us.com
http://www.katespadeoutletstores.us
http://www.nikepresto.us
http://www.coltsjersey.us
http://www.oakleysunglassesorg.us.org
http://www.uggsoutletsales.us.com
http://www.coachoutletcoachs.us.com
http://www.moncleroutletonline.us.com
http://www.uggbootclearance.net.co
http://www.canada-gooseoutlet.us
http://www.oakleysunglassesoutletok.us.com
http://www.toryburchoutletstore.com.co
http://www.ralphlauren-poloshirt.org.uk
http://www.canada—goose.ca
http://www.kd9nike.us
http://www.coachoutletofficialonline.us.com
http://www.kyrie.us.com
http://www.bottega-venetaoutlet.us
http://www.pradaoutlet.us
http://wizards.nbajerseysstore.us.com
http://www.jacketscanadagoose.ca
http://www.foampositeshoe.net
http://www.moncleroutletstores.us.org
http://www.nikeairmax-schweiz.ch
http://www.wellensteyn.us.org
http://www.fitflopssaleclearance.in.net
http://www.pandoracharmsofficial.us.com
http://www.reebokoutletstores.us.com
http://www.raybanssunglasses.me.uk
http://www.ferragamoshoes.org.uk
http://www.christianlouboutinoutletcl.us.com
http://www.uggbootsclearance.org
http://www.coachoutletonline.us.org
http://www.jeepshoes.us
http://www.long-champpliage.fr
http://www.mcmoutletstores.us.org
http://www.worldcupjerseys.us.com
http://mavericks.nbajerseysstore.us.com
http://www.chloeoutlet.us.com
http://www.dioroutlet.us
http://www.kappaclothing.us
http://www.mulberryhandbagsstores.org.uk
http://www.arcteryx.us.com
http://www.michaelkorsoutletcheapsale.us.com
http://www.canadagooseoutlet-stores.com
http://www.minnetonkas.us.com
http://www.givenchyjewelry.us
http://www.ralphlauren-poloshirts.us.com
http://www.vansshoes.net
http://www.ralphlauren-pascher.fr
http://www.longchamppascher.fr
http://www.coachoutletofficials.us.com
http://www.toryburchstoreoutlet.us.com
http://www.michaelkorsoutletclearanceus.us.com
http://www.longchamphandbagssale.us.com
http://www.nhljerseysstore.us.com
http://www.katespadeoutletsales.us.com
http://www.canadagoose-outletstore.name
http://www.poloralphlaurenoutlets.in.net
http://www.canadagoose—outlet.ca
http://www.canadagoose-jacketsuk.co.uk
http://www.y3shoes.org
http://www.jeanstruereligion.in.net
http://www.poloralphlaurens.org.uk
http://www.katespadestoreoutlet.us.org
http://www.soccer-shoes.us
http://www.jordan-shoes.us.com
http://www.chicago-blackhawks.us.com
http://www.pandoracharmssale.us.org
http://www.marc-jacobs.us.org
http://www.puma.us.org
http://www.longchampoutletonlines.us.com
http://www.canadiangooseoutlet.us.com
http://pacers.nbajerseysstore.us.com
http://www.jerseyfromchina.us.com
http://www.truereligionoutlet-store.us.com
http://www.suprashoes.us.com
http://www.uggoutletstoress.us.com
http://www.airjordanretros.us.com
http://www.toryburch.com.co
http://www.cheapnfljerseysforsale.us.com
http://www.handbagslongchamp.org.uk
http://www.kate-spadeoutlets.in.net
http://www.christianlouboutinshoesuk.me.uk
http://www.ralphlaurenpoloshirtss.org.uk
http://www.canadagoosesoutletstore.com
http://www.denverbroncos.us.org
http://www.jordanshoessale.us.com

 
ninest123
 
Avatar
 
 
ninest123
Total Posts:  1703
Joined  29-06-2017
 
 
 
12 October 2018 04:19