http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7829/ussnewyorkxm7.jpg
The arms of the newly-christened amphibious assault ship USS New York. This ship is unique in that some of the metal used in constructing the ship is from the ruined World Trade Center destroyed on September 11, 2001. This is reflected in the coat of arms.
The phoenix is a very appropriate and attractive symbol.
Regards,
I agree with Mohamed. The phoenix could not be more appropriate. The same is true of the twin towers rendered, as well as the motto.
Stephen R. Hickman;54881 wrote:
I agree with Mohamed. The phoenix could not be more appropriate. The same is true of the twin towers rendered, as well as the motto.
In complete agreement, with the qualification that I hope that they are blazoned as "pallets retrait cendrée" as I think this allusion to the towers would be the best approach.
Daniel C. Boyer;54884 wrote:
In complete agreement, with the qualification that I hope that they are blazoned as "pallets retrait cendrée" as I think this allusion to the towers would be the best approach.
"Cendrée" strikes me as having unfortunately macabre overtones in this context. If one must use French terms, then I think "acier" (steel colored) would be a better choice. Personally, I would favor just saying "gray."
Joseph McMillan;54885 wrote:
"Cendrée" strikes me as having unfortunately macabre overtones in this context. If one must use French terms, then I think "acier" (steel colored) would be a better choice. Personally, I would favor just saying "gray."
Gray isn’t really as accepted a heraldic tincture as cendrée is, and at any rate, though you are certainly correct as to how macabre the blazon would be, the blazon should attempt to get the right appearance in preference to concern about allusions, but acier is more of an aspect of or type of proper in how it is used, which is questionable as concerns the chevronel which is apparently of the same tincture. Then again, the pallets and chevronel might be a little light for cendrée (does anyone else have a better idea of this?). "Grisatre" is a possibility here.
Daniel C. Boyer;54888 wrote:
Gray isn’t really as accepted a heraldic tincture.
Neither is cendree, not really. But we’ve been through this all before.
Joseph McMillan;54900 wrote:
Neither is cendree, not really. But we’ve been through this all before.
Not really. Cendree is listed as a tincture in a number of books, and appeared in a very, very few arms at a period predating any notion of "gray" as a heraldic tincture. And I’m not really sure that cendree should be used for grey in general as it would seem to suggest a darker colour than grey would, but actual depictions would be more helpful in this regard than any theory of mine—bleu celeste tends to be lighter than the name would suggest, for example.
But how often did it appear in arms other than as a description of a naturally ash-gray object? It’s easy to troll through Rietstap and similar collections of blazons collecting various words that could be interpreted as tincture designations (carnation and acier come to mind) but that are not listed among the heraldic tinctures by French or other Continental heraldic writers. My conclusion from a fairly light examination is that such terms show up mainly as a more precise term for what we would call "proper" to describe something in its natural colors. Thus French heralds would blazon the hand in my crest as un main de carnation, but I don’t think any French heraldry text would list carnation as a heraldic tincture. In other words, no carnation fields or ordinaries or conventional heraldic charges like fleurs-de-lis.
There are a very, very few isolated cases in which such non-standard tinctures are used for fields and ordinaries, such as the case cited by Woodward of a Bavarian family named Ashua which bore "Cendrée, a mount of three coupeaux in base or," cendrée obviously being a pun on the name. But it makes no sense to extrapolate these extremely rare if not unique occurrences into a general rule that accepts cendrée a recognized heraldic tincture but refuses to admit the plain English "gray."
Joseph,
And yet, cendree has been used as a heraldic tincture. It is infrequent but it has been used and it is not ambigious. The only objection seems to be to avoid a macabre allusion to what was ultimately a macabre event. If it were simply a plain English isuue we would drop Azure for Blue, Gules for red, etc. and use plain language to blason things and yet for reasons of custom and perhaps for clarity we stick to the historical language even when it is arcane.
Daniel,
I like your blazon. The symbolism is excellent.
I agree that the phoenix is perfect symbolism for the 9-11 tragedy. However, to avoid the cendree and ash-grey connotations, what about describing the towers and chevron as Eisen or Gris? Gris may be better suited since it is considered a fur and therefore not a violation of the dreaded "tincture rule" and can safely reside between Azure and Argent.
Take care,
PBlanton;55016 wrote:
I agree that the phoenix is perfect symbolism for the 9-11 tragedy. However, to avoid the cendree and ash-grey connotations, what about describing the towers and chevron as Eisen or Gris? Gris may be better suited since it is considered a fur and therefore not a violation of the dreaded "tincture rule" and can safely reside between Azure and Argent.
Take care,
Gris is not a fur. And the rule of tincture doesn’t prohibit anything from being between something and something else, only on it.
Daniel C. Boyer wrote:
Gris is not a fur.
It is my understanding that the heraldic term “gris” described the grey fur of the marten. Another similar term, “petit-gris”, refers specifically to the grey squirrel (which, incidentally, is also the same animal that gave us the Azure/Argent combination of vair).
Daniel C. Boyer wrote:
And the rule of tincture doesn’t prohibit anything from being between something and something else, only on it.
Sheesh! Let me rephrase…Gris can safely reside upon both Azure and Argent. Since the towers and chevron are upon both Azure and Argent (the chevron effectively separating both colors), it would be useful to blazon the towers and chevron as a neutral tincture (fur), therefore my suggestion of Gris. Eisen (iron), being a metal, would be a violation of the strict traditionalist “metal on metal” as would cendreé (dark grey), being a color, be a violation of “color on color”.
Daniel C. Boyer wrote:
Gray isn’t really as accepted a heraldic tincture.
You are right, gray is not a heraldically accepted tincture. Grey is, though. Gray is another name for a badger and not a tincture. Grey, according to Parker’s Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry, applies to a hair color. Furthermore, grey (and gris) has been used previously as a tincture in US military heraldry (just as some other previously non-heraldic colors such as blue celeste and buff), and therefore has a US military precedence to follow.
Take care,
Let’s remember that this is a naval vessel which will house hundreds of sailors. They will all understand "gray" but how many will know, or be able to spell or pronounce, or care to use, such an obscure foreign word?
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