Heraldic Banners

 
David Boven
 
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David Boven
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Joined  29-04-2004
 
 
 
04 September 2008 00:42
 

Greetings,

As many of you know, my wife and I are living in India for a couple years. It struck me the other day that I will probably never again live so close to so many skilled tailors that work so inexpensively. I think that I may try having one of them make an armorial banner for me while we’re here. I wonder if any of you have recommendations as to size, materials, etc., etc. Thanks a lot.

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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04 September 2008 01:07
 

David Boven;63053 wrote:

Greetings,

As many of you know, my wife and I are living in India for a couple years. It struck me the other day that I will probably never again live so close to so many skilled tailors that work so inexpensively. I think that I may try having one of them make an armorial banner for me while we’re here. I wonder if any of you have recommendations as to size, materials, etc., etc. Thanks a lot.


There was a thread about this, as I recall, on the early or first incarnation of the HSS forum.  If I can find it, I will post a link.  Perhaps another forumeer remembers better than I.

 

/Charles

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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04 September 2008 01:18
 

It appears that incarnation of the HSS forum no longer exists on-line.

/Charles

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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04 September 2008 01:28
 

i would suggest whatever the standard size of a flag would be, then decide square or rectangular on those dimensions.  that way, when displayed, it will seem proportional

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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04 September 2008 06:45
 

Dave,

The actual size is something you need to decide based on how you plan to display the flag. If you’re going to fly it on a pole, how high a pole? If you’re planning on mounting it on a portable staff, then I would guess you would probably want it about 4 feet hoist (vertical measurement) at most. For comparison, Civil War era Union Army military colors were 6 ’ x 6’ 6". In the late 19th century, that was reduced to 4’4" x 5’6", and then in World War II to 3’ x 4’.

 

Today, ceremonial units in Washington carry the 4’4" size, as do the Marines, while the Army and Air Force elsewhere carry the 3’ size. British Army regiments’ colo(u)rs are 3’ x 3’6". So if you track down some pictures of what those look like, you’ll get an idea of what you’re dealing with.

 

As to the ratio of the flag, Lyon Court prescribes a banner in the proportions 5:4, that is, four feet fly to five feet hoist. the English custom is for heraldic banners to be square. I think your choice on this front should be driven by the design of the arms—you need to determine whether they would look best in a slightly vertical, square, or slightly horizontal format.

 
David Boven
 
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David Boven
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04 September 2008 11:02
 

Thanks for the advice, Joe. I think I like the way the Scottish 5:4 ratio. Denis Towner made an image of a banner for me a year or two ago and used the Scottish measurements. I think it turned out pretty well.

http://www.geocities.com/bovenheraldry/banner.jpg

If I convince Beth that this is something we need to get in India, I’ll probably bring this picture in to the tailor to show what I’m looking for.

As for actual size, I’m not really sure what I’d use the banner for. Mostly, I just think it would be cool to get while I’ve got the chance. In keeping with the 5:4 ratio, I’d probably want it to be 3’ x 2’5" (or 100cm x 80cm) or somewhere thereabouts.

 

Thus far, I’ve only been to the fabric store here to get material for clothes and curtains. Any idea what fabrics would be best for a banner. I’m sure that our fabric guy could get just about anything that we’d need.

 

Edit: If someone wants to resize the banner image for me, I’d love it. Our connection is a bit slow here, and I don’t feel like waiting for a resized version to upload.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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04 September 2008 18:47
 

Ceremonial banners of the highest grade were and are made of silk with the metals being actual gold and silver bullion. Silk and metal bullion are readily available in India as well as the expertise to make such a banner. If one were going to use silk for a banner, one should inquire firstly if the dye used to colour the raw silk contained any trace of iron as this will cause oxidisation and the eventual deterioration of the silk material. This is the reason that so few regimental standards from the US Civil War period exist today as they were dyed with compounds containing iron. Many years ago, I assisted my museum colleagues in the unwrapping of dozens of Ohio Regimental Standards which had been stored for decades. Oxidisation had reduced most of these flags to the fringe and dusty and brittle fragments of blue silk.

The best preserved military flags in this collection were made of finely woven linen. Perhaps a fine unbleached (as the bleaching process weakens the fibers) linen dyed to match your needs would be the most practical material.

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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05 September 2008 00:59
 

From the now lost thread on the missing HSS forum, I remember the comment someone made that one had to present an exact image of what one wanted to the weaver.  This because they often had little heraldic experience and could not exercise judgement. They reproduced exactly what was on the paper.

/Charles

 
David Boven
 
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David Boven
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05 September 2008 04:26
 

Thanks for the advice, all. I’ll look into the costs for the materials that David recommended. Charles, I remembered that Stephen Plowman had a banner made a while back. After finding the thread on the current HSS forums, I think that you are right about providing the craftsmen with exactly what I want. It seems that Stephen outsourced his project to Pakistan and they did an excellent job because he did just that. I also recently found the thread about the table banner that I had made cheaply from Denis’s artwork. Thanks again, guys. I’ll let you know when we get back down to the bazaar and I get started on this. We both contracted bad bacterial infections (aka Typhoid) in the last week, so we’ve been in bed most of the time.

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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05 September 2008 06:02
 

David Boven;63087 wrote:

We both contracted bad bacterial infections (aka Typhoid) in the last week, so we’ve been in bed most of the time.


How unfortunate but certainly not unexpected. There is a vaccine against Typhoid that I took before going to Central Asia in 1993, so you did not have to fall victim to this illness. I would strongly recommend that the both of you receive vaccinations against Hepatitis A and B as well as those for the various Encephalitis strains endemic to your area.

 

It occurs to me that a banner, unless it is made of nylon and flown out of doors has very limited usage. If the flag is to be used indoors, a gonfallon or gonfannon of your arms would be the most useful heraldic flag. Another flag option for you to consider is the heraldic ensign which has had little popularity since the Tudor period but is very useful as it requires nothing more than a cross bar and a nail on the wall. The heraldic ensign is a wall hanging consisting of a back ground of alternating livery colours with the full achievement overall. If I can find some proper images of these flags (not SCA interpretations), I will post them in this thread.

 
David Boven
 
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David Boven
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05 September 2008 12:21
 

David Pritchard;63088 wrote:

How unfortunate but certainly not unexpected. There is a vaccine against Typhoid that I took before going to Central Asia in 1993, so you did not have to fall victim to this illness. I would strongly recommend that the both of you receive vaccinations against Hepatitis A and B as well as those for the various Encephalitis strains endemic to your area.


We certainly got all of the vaccines you mentioned before coming (and a few others). Apparently, the typhoid vaccine is not 100% effective, but it will at least reduce the severity of the disease.


David Pritchard;63088 wrote:

It occurs to me that a banner, unless it is made of nylon and flown out of doors has very limited usage. If the flag is to be used indoors, a gonfallon or gonfannon of your arms would be the most useful heraldic flag. Another flag option for you to consider is the heraldic ensign which has had little popularity since the Tudor period but is very useful as it requires nothing more than a cross bar and a nail on the wall. The heraldic ensign is a wall hanging consisting of a back ground of alternating livery colours with the full achievement overall. If I can find some proper images of these flags (not SCA interpretations), I will post them in this thread.


I image that I will have very little practical use for the banner. Mostly I just think it will be fun to have. Assuming that the cost is not prohibitive, I may have the tailor make me a gonfallon or gonfannon, as well. As far as images of the flags, I believe that Friar’s Dictionary of Heraldry has a nice picture that illustrates most of the different types of heraldic flags. I’ll check tomorrow, though. Thanks for your ideas, David.

 
Mark Olivo
 
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Mark Olivo
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07 September 2008 20:07
 

Charles E. Drake;63086 wrote:

From the now lost thread on the missing HSS forum, I remember the comment someone made that one had to present an exact image of what one wanted to the weaver.  This because they often had little heraldic experience and could not exercise judgement. They reproduced exactly what was on the paper.

/Charles


I would also add that you ought to be careful to make sure the reverse and the obverse are not identical (unless that is your goal).