Bishop’s Arms

 
Sunil Saigal
 
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Sunil Saigal
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29 October 2008 15:05
 

Michael Y. Medvedev;64103 wrote:

I would rather award the superiority to the position which is closer to the shield.

In fact, I think that both versions are equally acceptable.


Without entering the discussion of which is most appropriate, let me just observe that Dom Anselm Balker in his masterly renditions of arms attributed to English Cardinals, as published by Mark Turnham Elvins in the book Cardinals and Heraldry, in all cases (in which processional crosses are shown) save two places the cross above the clerical headgear, galero or, for the earliest cardinals, mitre - and in a couple of cases actually suspends the hat from the cross.

 

... And he is one of the few artists, whose work I have seen, who actually seems to know what to do with his tassels, as it were (no disrespect intended towards those having presented their works here), ref. Father Byers’ comment above about looped cords.

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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29 October 2008 21:45
 

David E. Cohen;64099 wrote:

A further question:  What is the meaning of the charges, especially the unbalanced scales charge, which has been emblazoned to be reminiscent of the Chi Rho?


According to the explanation of Archbishop Schnurr’s personal arms by Deacon Paul Sullivan, the liles represent St. Anthony of Padua, the patron saint of his home parish. The serpent is taken from the arms of the archbishop’s home diocese of Sioux City, IA. The scales represent his doctorate in canon law, and are indeed tilted to merge the balance with the chi rho symbol.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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06 November 2008 01:00
 

The coat of arms of Bishop John Quinn who was recently named Coadjutor of Winona, MN

http://www.dow.org/images/QuinnCrest.jpg

 
Marcus K
 
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Marcus K
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06 November 2008 12:26
 

Arms of George J. Lucas, Bishop of Springfield in Illinois since the end of 1999. Not the canting Bull of St. Luke = Lucas.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/5348/bishop2blucas2bcoat2bofwk1.jpg

Picture from http://dzehnle.blogspot.com/2007/10/bishop-lucas-on-vocations.html

 
Kenneth Mansfield
 
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Kenneth Mansfield
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06 November 2008 23:14
 

gselvester;64289 wrote:

The coat of arms of Bishop John Quinn who was recently named Coadjutor of Winona, MN

http://www.dow.org/images/QuinnCrest.jpg

These are much more attractive than I would have thought possible from the blazon alone.


Marcus K;64299 wrote:

Arms of George J. Lucas, Bishop of Springfield in Illinois since the end of 1999.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/5348/bishop2blucas2bcoat2bofwk1.jpg

The dexter arms have been done a great disservice by being impaled. The fountains are far too squished.

 
 
Madalch
 
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Madalch
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06 November 2008 23:33
 

Marcus K;64299 wrote:

Arms of George J. Lucas….


What?  No light saber?

 

(Yes, I’m sure he’s sick of that joke….)

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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07 November 2008 00:30
 

Yeah and I’ve met him. He doesn’t have a good sense of humor about his name.

 
Marcus K
 
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Marcus K
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20 November 2008 18:14
 

http://archidiecezja.lodz.pl/gif/HerbArcybiskupa.png

Arms of Dr. Iur.Can. Władysław Ziółek, Archbishop of Lodz, Poland. Picture from the site of the Archdiocese http://archidiecezja.lodz.pl.

http://www.kathpedia.com/images/7/78/Wappen_Bischofs_Athanasius_Schneider.jpg

Arms of Athanasius Schneider, ORC; Coadjutor Bishop of Karaganda, Kazakstan. Picture form http://www.kathpedia.com.

 
gselvester
 
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gselvester
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28 November 2008 00:55
 

Arms of the Most Rev. Anthony Obinna, Archbishop of Owerri, Nigeria. Hmmmm. I’ll refrain from comment except to say I don’t think its a great design. The artwork was done in Italy.

 

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/GSelvester/ArchbishopObinnasCoat-of-Arms.jpg

 
Iain Boyd
 
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Iain Boyd
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28 November 2008 15:15
 

I can cope with what is in dexter chief and in base, but, sinister chief . . . ????!!!!

Iain

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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28 November 2008 17:01
 

THe sinister chief cries out for a little artistic license—at the very least, "zooming out" just a bit so we can more clearly see what’s there.

Filling the space" while a useful convention can be overdone.

Looking back at "615 in this thread & various comments pro & con (hat above cross vs. cross—or the top of it anyway - above the hat?)—

 

The artwork is beautiful, but my first mental image was of a lampshade on a floor lamp.  Im heraldry generally, we try to distinguish between the two-dimensional shield & three-dimensional crests & other additaments.  If it was a cross behind & rising above, say, a bishop’s mitre, then even in 3-D it would be plaisible.  The wide-brimmed galero, however, would require substantially more "depth."  If the hat is above the cross, no (or only minimal) problem—both the cross and the shield appear to be roughly centered under the galero.  When the cross rises above the galero, however, it either looks like the cross passes through the crown of the hat (the lampshade effect); or the cross must be set way behind the shield (distant roughly the diameter of the brim); or the galero is hanging in space essentially in front of the shield like a round awning.  Looks fine flat; but if your mind’s eye tries to add the 3rd dimension—or if the achievement is carved in relief or modeled in 3-D for display above the cathedra—it doesn’t work so well.

 

The examples shown of the hat hanging vertically (i.e. giving a top view of the galero) avoid this problem quite nicely, but are likely to puzzle those not familiar with this variety of display.

 

My thoughts only, & no disrespect for the artists or the institution intended.

 
Alexander Liptak
 
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Alexander Liptak
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28 November 2008 17:25
 

I am sure that the sinister portion is drawn to the blazons specifications.  It is probably an odd emblazon.

I also do not see how the drawing does not work in a third dimension.  The galero is centered above the mitre, with the top of the mitre ending exactly where the brim is in space.  The shield is before the mitre then, rather than centered under the galero.

 

It seems more three dimensional than the other drawings before it, which view is only plausible if you are eye level with the galero brim, which means the perspective is off below there.

 
Dohrman Byers
 
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Dohrman Byers
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29 November 2008 11:20
 

Michael F. McCartney;64825 wrote:

The artwork is beautiful, but my first mental image was of a lampshade on a floor lamp.  Im heraldry generally, we try to distinguish between the two-dimensional shield & three-dimensional crests & other additaments.  If it was a cross behind & rising above, say, a bishop’s mitre, then even in 3-D it would be plaisible.  The wide-brimmed galero, however, would require substantially more "depth."  If the hat is above the cross, no (or only minimal) problem—both the cross and the shield appear to be roughly centered under the galero.  When the cross rises above the galero, however, it either looks like the cross passes through the crown of the hat (the lampshade effect); or the cross must be set way behind the shield (distant roughly the diameter of the brim); or the galero is hanging in space essentially in front of the shield like a round awning.  Looks fine flat; but if your mind’s eye tries to add the 3rd dimension—or if the achievement is carved in relief or modeled in 3-D for display above the cathedra—it doesn’t work so well.


These are matters to contemplate only under the influence. The impossible arrangement and unrealistic proportions of the elements of an ecclesiastical achievement ought never to be represented—or even imagined—in realstic spacial terms. Some Baroque artists attempted to do this, and the results were (to my mind) not pretty. As for passing the cross through the crown of the hat, von Richenthal did that with miters and crosiers in his 1413 Das Concilium. (See Heim, Heraldry in the Catholic Church, p. 24.)

 
Michael F. McCartney
 
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Michael F. McCartney
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01 December 2008 20:59
 

I’m not following Xander’s last comment—but then he may not have followed mine either, so I can’t throw stones.  Most of my comments were based on posting #615 (though I see that I mis-typed ‘615 instead of #615, which likely didn’t help!), in which there was no mitre, just an episcopal cross rising above (and looking like it was passing through) the galero.  I meant to say that if there were a mitre instead of the galero, IMO the spacial concerns would be less pronounced and more easily ignored.

Fr. Byers is probably right, one should not expect the things (including the heraldry) of the spirit to conform to the things of this world—well, that’s not exactly what he said, but a fair tongue-in-cheek paraphrase perhaps.  I don’t believe this is a desirable distinction, but its not my church so my nickle’s worth of commentary will get me about 5 cents in change.  As long as the representations are all in 2 dimensional art, it likely doesn’t matter for any but doubting Thomases.  But I have seen 3-D or as least high-relief depictions of episcopal arms in e.g. the new St. Mary’s cathedral in San Francisco.  Ah well, the Lord works, and his anointed apparently emblazon, in strange ways.

 

And the artwork in #615 is beautiful!

 
Marcus K
 
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Marcus K
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06 December 2008 08:31
 

A historical Bishop’s Arms of some interest those of Bryan Joseph Mc Entegart [1893-1968] whilst Rector of the Catholic University of Armerica and Bishop of Aradi IPI 1953-1957. Bishop McEntegart’s personal arms are here impaled with those of the Catholic University of America, whilst not wrong this is the first time I have seen a Bishop’s arms impaled with a Arms other than a diocesean one. Does anyone know if this have been done by any other Rector of the University?

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/3776/bryanjmcentegartdd6.jpg

 

The picture is the work of Dom Willliam Wilfried Bayne, OSB.

 

NB McEntegart was Bishop of Ogdensburg 1943-1953 and of Brooklyn 1957-1968 (from 1966 with the personal title of Archbishop).