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Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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12 March 2009 20:06
 

Kelisli;67318 wrote:

The head of the animal looks like a boar’s head, but certainly the snout doesn’t look anything like a boar’s snout! It also does not have the look of a wolf.


What has me perplexed is that the snout has a hooked tusk on the end.  Someone remind me what kind of heraldic beast that it. :confused:


Quote:

Also, was Decatur, his father, or grandfather a British viscount? The coronet would lead me to believe that.


No, the Decaturs were French.  The grandfather, Etienne Decatur, is traditionally said to have been a French naval officer from La Rochelle, who resigned from the service to settle in America after getting sick in the West Indies around 1750.  However, a review of two recent biographies, at http://www.hrnm.navy.mil/daybooks/volumexissue2.pdf, says he was actually a privateer from an area of modern day Italy then controlled by France.  I guess the family may have been noble, but presumably not titled.

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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12 March 2009 23:00
 

Joseph McMillan;67321 wrote:

What has me perplexed is that the snout has a hooked tusk on the end. Someone remind me what kind of heraldic beast that it. :confused:


A tyger (or heraldic tiger), of course!  Incipient senility setting in.

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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12 March 2009 23:17
 

Kelisli;67318 wrote:

Also, was Decatur, his father, or grandfather a British viscount? The coronet would lead me to believe that.


If they were Brits, I would also be led to believe that, but the French seem to have been extremely flexible in the use of additaments over the centuries. The Conseil Francais d’Heraldique provides the following explanation of French norms concerning coronets:


Quote:

Quant aux couronnes, les exemples sont nombreux où de simples roturiers les ont utilisées, que ce soit par vanité ou par simple souci esthétique. En 1779, Honoré-Gabriel de Riquetti, comte de Mirabeau, écrivait à sa jeune maîtresse Sophie de Ruffey, femme du vieux marquis de Monnier « Les gens de qualité prennent tous une couronne de duc, parce qu’il n’y a point de procureur qui ne porte celle de comte ou de marquis ». Cette utilisation abusive allait pourtant à l’encontre d’un arrêt rendu par le parlement de Paris le 13 août 1663 interdisant « à tous propriétaires de terre de se qualifier barons, comtes, marquis, et d’en prendre la couronne à leurs armes, sinon en vertu de lettres-patentes bien et duement vérifiées en la cour … » (Chérin, abrégé chronologique d’édits …, page 138 ). Seules les couronnes impériales et royales ne furent jamais usurpées.

 

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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13 March 2009 01:13
 

Joe,

Yes, it might be an heraldic tiger as well.  Although, with the exception of the lack of scales, the head looks so similar to that of the dragon in the crest.  That is what made me think it is a dragon.

 

Also, if they were French, then the coronet would signify a comintal rather than an untitled family, but as Fred indicated, the French were fairly liberal with their use of coronets!

 
Wilfred Leblanc
 
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Wilfred Leblanc
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13 March 2009 02:34
 

Kelisli;67336 wrote:

Also, if they were French, then the coronet would signify a comintal rather than an untitled family, but as Fred indicated, the French were fairly liberal with their use of coronets!


I’m not sure it signified much of anything, necessarily, as the hypothetical rules were so often broken, but that particle "de" in the surname was, of course, often an indication of aristocratic status of some sort.

 
emrys
 
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emrys
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13 March 2009 04:39
 

I think it is a dragons head look at the tongue it seems to end in an arrow point.

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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13 March 2009 08:47
 

Ton,

Good argument.  I couldn’t see the tongue very well but, it looks like it is that of a dragon.  And, it would make sense for a charge to be repeated in both, the shield charges and the crest.  What do you think, Joe?

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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13 March 2009 08:52
 

Fred,

Good point.  In French, and some continental heraldry, coronets were used for artistic or social appeal, as opposed to a mark of actual status or rank!

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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13 March 2009 10:42
 

But dragon’s don’t have fuzzy ears or tufts on their heads.  And I think the tusk coming out the nose definitively identifies it as a tyger.  I’m thinking that maybe the crest is also supposed to be a tyger and that the engraver just wasn’t totally expert in this stuff.

http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/ProjectPics/iii035_19940052_arms_langfo.jpg

 
Kelisli
 
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Kelisli
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13 March 2009 16:53
 

Good point, Joe.  I thought about the furry ears, but the image isn’t large enough to ascertain whether it’s a tiger or a dragon.  I have noticed that dragons are rendered with similar noses though.  However, the engraver not knowing the difference between an heraldic tiger and a dragon is a very plausible argument.

On another note, I have not heard any discussion around the charge that could possibly be a lozenge or a disfigured die.  And, what are the charges that are debruising the lozenge?

 
David Pritchard
 
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David Pritchard
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14 March 2009 16:45
 

It should be remembered that Kontor-Admiral Pavel Dzhones held the Order of Saint Anna which conferred nobility in the Russian Empire. May be Mr. Medvedev could research if the admiral was granted a coat-of-arms by Catherine the Great?

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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14 March 2009 18:05
 

Dear David,

No, he did not get Russian grant. Moreover, he was created a knight of St. Anne before this order became legally Russian (this occured in 1797, after JPJ’s death).

[BTW the memorial plaque dedicated to him is very close to my house and I see it almost daily.]

 
Robert Tucker
 
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Robert Tucker
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15 March 2009 22:27
 

Joseph,

It this perhaps engraved by Henry Dawkins? (Cir. 1783)  I remember an article mentioning a plate sold at Christie’s Auction in 2005 about a silver plate with the engraving of the Decatur family on one side and the Coat of Arms of Decatur on the other.

 

Cheers,

 
Joseph McMillan
 
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Joseph McMillan
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16 March 2009 07:04
 

Robert Tucker;67444 wrote:

Joseph,

It this perhaps engraved by Henry Dawkins? (Cir. 1783) I remember an article mentioning a plate sold at Christie’s Auction in 2005 about a silver plate with the engraving of the Decatur family on one side and the Coat of Arms of Decatur on the other.

 

Cheers,


It may be, but the Georgetown catalogue says this particular item has been in their collection since shortly after the death of Susan Decatur, widow of the commodore, in 1860.  The picture we have is described as the reverse of


Quote:

Medal. Description: Stephen Decatur’s Ship, the "Royal Louis," and Masonic emblems, coat of arms of the Decatur family. Donor: Ms. Fenwick at the death of Susan Decatur. Inscription: "Success to the Royal Louis - Decatur." Medium: Silverplate.

 

 
Robert Tucker
 
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Robert Tucker
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16 March 2009 23:10
 

Thank you Joseph for the information, I thought it might be the same item mentioned in this article.

Sadly, I have searched for a larger image than the paltry one depicted.  It is described as follows:
Quote:

Description:

ENGRAVED BY HENRY DAWKINS, NEW YORK, CIRCA 1783

The plate oval, the obverse engraved with a portrait of the Decatur family in front of an open window with a two ships in the distance, with the inscription To Mrs. Ann Decatur This Design is Inscribed by Her Ob. Humb. Servt. H. Dawkins, the reverse engraved in reverse with a coat-of-arms and motto, within a rococo cartouche againt a brickwork ground, and engraved The Arms of the Ancient Family of Decatur, engraver’s signature on front, set within a gilt frame and floral matting

The plate 3 in. long, the overall frame 6 1/8 in. long

Thank you again for the information on this intriguing piece.  :D