Unknown arms

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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03 August 2009 01:19
 

I wonder if anyone can help identify arms I saw today on the back glass of a vehicle. I was leaving a fast food restaurant in Florida and became excited when I saw what appeared to be "real arms" at a distance.

Quarterly 1 & 4 the cross of St. George; 2, the cross of St. Andrew; 3, the Irish harp.

The crest appeared to be the British royal crest.

The dexter supporter was a lion or;

The sinister was either a red wyvern or dragon, I failed to notice as it

was just a glance as it drove away.

 

/Charles

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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03 August 2009 01:28
 

They appear to be the arms of the Commonwealth under Lord Protector Cromwell as depicted in the Great Seal (1655)... save for Cromwell’s arms which were displayed in an escutcheon. Perhaps they did have an escutcheon, which you may have missed. The quarters represented England, Scotland, and Ireland… much like the royal arms still do today. Quarters 1 and 2 of the royal arms depicted the royal arms of the individual kingdoms of England and of Scotland, which is why Cromwell, I would imagine, chose to use symbols not related to abolished monarchy.

http://fotw.net/misc/gb)c1649.gif

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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03 August 2009 14:07
 

Dear Daniel, you wrote
Quote:

Cromwell, I would imagine, chose to use symbols not related to abolished monarchy

and this is obviously correct but probably may be defined in a narrower, more precise way. The majority of national symbols emerged as family symbols of the rulers of that nations, and in Cromwell’s days this was felt stronger than now. So the French/English quarterings for England and the tressured "Ruddy Lion" for Scotland were most likely avoided by the Commonwealth as symbols belonging to, and illustrating the history of, the deposed Royal House.

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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03 August 2009 23:33
 

Thanks, yes! That is what I saw,though I don’t recall the surtout shield. I recognized that these were a sort of variant of the UKOGBANI arms, but didn’t know the history.

Now the question is, why were these on the car window decal?

 

/Charles

 
Dcgb7f
 
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Dcgb7f
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04 August 2009 00:53
 

Michael Y. Medvedev;70814 wrote:

Dear Daniel, you wrote

and this is obviously correct but probably may be defined in a narrower, more precise way. The majority of national symbols emerged as family symbols of the rulers of that nations, and in Cromwell’s days this was felt stronger than now. So the French/English quarterings for England and the tressured "Ruddy Lion" for Scotland were most likely avoided by the Commonwealth as symbols belonging to, and illustrating the history of, the deposed Royal House.

Yes, of course. A royal house’s arms are usually the arms of the kingdom. That’s what I was trying to get at, but thank you for putting it better than I did.

 
Michael Y. Medvedev
 
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Michael Y. Medvedev
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04 August 2009 04:52
 

Dcgb7f;70821 wrote:

[...]but thank you for putting it better than I did.

You are very kind, dear Daniel!

 
Robert Tucker
 
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Robert Tucker
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04 August 2009 12:05
 

Very good question Charles.  Why would these be on a decal in the window of a car?  Did some preliminary searches to see if there is a Cromwell School, town, business, etc. in Florida; of which there are several.  But nothing so far uses these.

I did however find a pseudo-"bucket shop" with messenger bags, t-shirts, polo shirts etc. with the arms of the Commonwealth.  Perhaps the individual chose these instead of the "normal" bucket shop arms of "Or a chief gules with a bend azure overall" for Cromwell that regularly appear on these disreputable sites.

 

I can’t think why anyone would knowingly use these arms.  So I’m thinking bucket shop, given the decal.  Could be completely wrong though LOL  perhaps there is some legitimate use for these.

 
Jay Bohn
 
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Jay Bohn
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04 August 2009 21:40
 

Robert Tucker;70824 wrote:

I can’t think why anyone would knowingly use these arms.


Political sympathy?

 
Charles E. Drake
 
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Charles E. Drake
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04 August 2009 23:51
 

Yes, I also did some Internet search and came up with nothing except the possibility that this was some poor misguided person surnamed Cromwell.

If so, pretty silly, for these are not even personal arms that were appropriated, but the arms of the leader of a nation.

 

It would be rather like someone being surnamed Obama and deciding to use the Presidential seal as personal arms.

 

/Charles

 
MohamedHossam
 
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MohamedHossam
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05 August 2009 01:39
 

Maybe they’re an English history buff, or in a battle re-enactment group?

Cheers,

 
David E. Cohen
 
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David E. Cohen
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05 August 2009 10:07
 

Perhaps an Englishman of republican (small "r") sympathies.

 
ninest123
 
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ninest123
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09 October 2018 23:30
 

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